Scaling +2/+2 Skills

[Bront]

I think first you need to fix synergy, because it's easy to get the equivilent of a feat with a single skill. I personaly think that +1 per 5 makes more sense than +2 at 5.

Next, for scale, I think something along the lines of +1/+1 that increases every 3 levels after that would be appropriate. I guess you could do +2/+2 and a +1/+1 increase too, but that seems a bit powerful.

Keep in mind, part of why these feats exist is to allow someone to get a higher than "Max" bonus at any level. Some skills this is more useful for than others, particularly at certaint levels (Early concentration for a Psion, Tumble is very nice at a particular bonus for moving in combat, Jump can get... fun at high bonuses, etc). Rystil Arden has made a character who can get a +38 in diplomacy at level 3 (A half-elf Enchanter/Psion/Warlock), imagine where that could go with scaling bonuses on the appropriate feats?

 

[Nifft]

My original suggestion was:

+1/+1: An addional +1 per 5 ranks in BOTH skills. Also, you do not get to pick any two skills, just the ones listed in feats in the PHB.

+2 (skill focus): An additional +1 per 4 ranks. Fewer limitations, larger bonus.


The points against were:
- 2nd level / 5th rank is already a sweet point for skills, thanks to synergy bonus.
- One traditional use for these feats is to compensate rather than augment -- to make up for NOT having the skills at low level.


The final revision was:
+2/+2: An additional +1 at 10 ranks in BOTH, and +1 every 5 ranks after. Just original skill pairs in the PHB.

+3 (skill focus): An additional +1 at 8 ranks, and +1 every 4 after.


Cheers, -- N

 

[ARandomGod]

My initial, totally unthought out thought to this was a simple:

+1 to this skill for every two character levels.

I suspected it would be overpowered, and I'm not surprised by reading other suggestions that it is compared to them.

Although I did notice one big difference other than power level between what I see mainly suggested and that thought. My thought would use the feat to aid someone in their skill use regardless of his actual skill points in the skill in question, and I think that mechanic should be in an "improved" feat of this type. Sure, you don't often take a feat along these lines unless you are planning on maxing out the skill in question, but the option to do so is there, and I think the feat should give an equal bonus to all people regardless of the number or skill points they have available to invest in something.

I'd suggest +1 and an additional +1 for every four character levels you have. That will make the skill less powerful at first level, but will improve the skill equally for everyone even if it's a skill they don't want to spend more actual points in.

OR something with a different power level, depending on how powerful you feel the feat(s)shoul be.

 

[genshou]

Thanks for the revival, all!

I am leaning more and more toward the belief that there should be more ways to get class skills not on your class list besides needling the DM till he or she just lets you regardless of rules (to get you to shut up, presumably). With that change to the feats we're discussing, I would base it on ranks. Talent can only take a person so far; there's a point where one just has to train and learn skill in order to harness all the potential ability they may have.

I can't remember at what levels I was planning on having what bonuses increase, but all the kind people re-posting their ideas should help with that. Thanks again, everyone.

 

[Bront]

Here's a feat that you might like Genshou. One I drew up for LEW.

Natural Talent [General]
A particular skill just comes naturaly to you.
Benefit: Choose one skill when you take this feat. You gain a +2 bonus to the skill, and the skill costs 1 point per rank to purchase, regardless what type of skill it is for your current class. Rank limits for class or cross class skills still apply, and this does not make the skill a class skill. Previously spent skill points are not refunded.
Normal: Buying a cross class skill cost 2 skill point per rank.
Special: This feat may be taken multiple times, each time applying to a different skill.

The idea was that it was a compromise to allowing a new class skill, but still gave some of the limits. Granted, LEW doesn't allow Natural Aptitude, but that's racialy limited anyway.

Hope it helps, feel free to use it

 

[ARandomGod]

I am leaning more and more toward the belief that there should be more ways to get class skills not on your class list besides needling the DM till he or she just lets you regardless of rules (to get you to shut up, presumably).

Ah, if you additionally change the feat to make the skills in the feat class skills, that's a whole different dimension.

With that change to the feats we're discussing, I would base it on ranks. Talent can only take a person so far; there's a point where one just has to train and learn skill in order to harness all the potential ability they may have.

I see feats AS special training to learn a skill, it's just special training to learn a skill in a different manner than the skill point system, which is why I stated that I felt a feat should give an equal bonus per level to someone with any amount of skill. On the other hand if you make the feat cause the skills to additionally be avaiable to anyone who's taken the feat at class skill rates, that's a different story!

Personally I think that granting the larger +'s to skills suggested above in addition to making them class skills might be too much, but power levels differ from campaign to campaign.

 

[genshou]

Feats don't always necessarily represent training. If a character takes Ambidexterity (rolled into Two-Weapon Fighting in 3.5) at 1st-level, one could say that person is simply naturally ambidextrous (like me ). In much the same way, someone who starts with the Alertness feat might just have amazing talent in that regard, beyond the bonus from their ability score alone. Granted, taking the feat later could possibly symbolize specialized training above and beyond skill ranks. However, I think Skill Focus as dedication to that skill rather than actual training makes more sense, and dedication will only take a person so far without actual skill to back it up. You may really want to kill the Black Knight (tm)* that killed your father, but in the end, you need both skill and desire in order to defeat the powerful foe.

Anyway, I think I should stop rambling as I haven't a clue what I'm saying anymore

*The Black Knight is not actually a trademark of anyone, but it looks cool that way.

 

[Spatzimaus]

The solution I went with, long ago when this first came up, was to make the +2/+2 and Skill Focus abilities less of a simple bonus. For instance, I think it was:

Skill Focus: Must be on a class skill. Can Take 10 on this skill even under duress, and can re-roll this skill's checks of 5 or less (the second roll stands, even if it's 5 or less as well).
Improved Skill Focus: replaces Skill Focus; can Take 10 under duress, can Take 20 even if failure would have a consequence (i.e., you spend 19 checks' worth of time planning it out, then do it right on the first try), and can re-roll any skill check of 10 or less (again, second roll stands)

And the 2-skill abilities simply gave one of the two benefits of Skill Focus to each of the two skills; pick either the Take 10 or rerolling ability for each skill. (Generally speaking, you'd go with the rerolling for most. That rerolling adds 1.875, on average, except that it greatly cuts down on critical failures (if you use those on skills) or at least reduces failures on very easy checks.)