Scaling: How many level 1 characters should it take to defeat a level 10 character?

[GreyICE]

Only if you choose to play like that. Once the words "Flowing Time Trait" "Haunt Shift Trick" and "Persistent Time Stop" show up, you're already outside of the realm of things a DM would actually allow, and into theoretical optimisation.

Well yes. But the hypothetical was ONE MILLION LEVEL FIVES who then took the time to KILL EACH OTHER UNTIL THEY COULD HIT LEVEL 20.

So it's a theoretical optimization puzzle.

If you're talking about killing five or six level 20 fighters, that's really not that difficult and requires little optimization.

A Druid with even poor optimization outperformed anything a Fighter, Monk, Barbarian or Ranger could bring to the table.

 

[Buugipopuu]

2. The only real challenges come from casters. Go caster or go home. Pretty damning condemnation of the system right there.

So, basically, you've got a system where high level casters are essentially gods. Nothing can reach them except for other gods.

Is this the kind of scaling we want in the system?

The casters' power comes from a small selection of overpowered spells, it's not a problem with the system. There's nothing in the system that says Shapechange or Improved Invisibility have to be that good.

 

[Endur]

The 1st level butler cuts the level 20 wizard's throat while he is sleeping.

The rest of the 1st levels stay home.

 

[Savage Wombat]

Why the dis on Order of the Stick? What does it have to do with cannibalizing other characters?

 

[GreyICE]

The 1st level butler cuts the level 20 wizard's throat while he is sleeping.

The rest of the 1st levels stay home.

Wizard sleeps in a summoned mansion on another plane of existence, or just does the ol' Rope Trick thing to get 8 hours uninterrupted without anyone bothering him. Also he's surrounded by the undead guardians he created with Animate dead (the Wizard was a better necromancer than the necromancer, in terms of undead minions, thanks to the Necromancer having a balanced method of minion creation while the Wizard just got the 'oh whatever, how many minions could he really create anyway' treatment).

Thanks for playing.

Why the dis on Order of the Stick? What does it have to do with cannibalizing other characters?

Order of the stick often highlights incredibly unbalanced elements of 3E, or has meta-gamey solutions to problems based on 3E mechanics. The most famous of which is probably the Druid "I HAVE CLASS FEATURES MORE POWERFUL THAN YOUR ENTIRE CHARACTER" quote, but there's many others.

It's exactly the sort of thing that Order of the Stick characters would come up with, with their very cavalier attitudes towards death and their gamey interpretations of how the world works. It would also make for a hysterical comic.

Unfortunately it makes for a less hysterical game system.

 

[Savage Wombat]

You clearly don't read the strip enough if that's the only impression it's left you with. And we've all seen what the OotS view of 4e is, too.

Anyway, back to your regularly scheduled debate.

 

[Endur]

Wizard sleeps in a summoned mansion on another plane of existence, or just does the ol' Rope Trick thing to get 8 hours uninterrupted without anyone bothering him. Also he's surrounded by the undead guardians he created with Animate dead (the Wizard was a better necromancer than the necromancer, in terms of undead minions, thanks to the Necromancer having a balanced method of minion creation while the Wizard just got the 'oh whatever, how many minions could he really create anyway' treatment).

I think we saw in Order of the Stick why wizards using undead minions come to a bad end.

As for the other dimensional summoned mansion or rope trick, those usually come to a bad end sooner or later.

That said, this whole wizard hijack is not really relevant to my original post. My original post was that according to 3.x EL rules, level 10 > 10 level 1s. Probably around 24 to 1 according to the EL rules. The exact number of how many it really would take (24, 1000, 1 million) isn't relevant. Everyone recognizes that a wizard with improved invis, evocation spells, flying, stoneskin, etc. will kill lots of low levels. That's not exactly news.

 

[Hussar]

The casters' power comes from a small selection of overpowered spells, it's not a problem with the system. There's nothing in the system that says Shapechange or Improved Invisibility have to be that good.

"Small number"? I do not think that means what you think it means.

There is a list as long as my arm of different ways of exploiting the magic system. The problem is entirely systemic, not simply a problem with a couple of spells.

The fact that a high level caster could actually win this engagement is the entire problem. It's ridiculous. No non-caster could even remotely begin thinking of surviving a single day. But the caster not only could survive, he could actually pull it off. Just with the PHB.

Oh, and the butler thing? The wizard is a lich. Does make cutting his throat a teensy bit tricky.

 

[Hussar]

I think we saw in Order of the Stick why wizards using undead minions come to a bad end.

As for the other dimensional summoned mansion or rope trick, those usually come to a bad end sooner or later.

That said, this whole wizard hijack is not really relevant to my original post. My original post was that according to 3.x EL rules, level 10 > 10 level 1s. Probably around 24 to 1 according to the EL rules. The exact number of how many it really would take (24, 1000, 1 million) isn't relevant. Everyone recognizes that a wizard with improved invis, evocation spells, flying, stoneskin, etc. will kill lots of low levels. That's not exactly news.

However, that's a misuse of the EL system in the first place. The EL system is predicated on a group of 4 PC's of a given level, not a single PC. It is also predicated on a number of other assumptions as well. However, simply adding in baddies to come up with an equal EL doesn't work. Heck that's pulled straight from the DMG that this doesn't work.

 

[Endur]

However, that's a misuse of the EL system in the first place. The EL system is predicated on a group of 4 PC's of a given level, not a single PC. It is also predicated on a number of other assumptions as well. However, simply adding in baddies to come up with an equal EL doesn't work. Heck that's pulled straight from the DMG that this doesn't work.

I agree that the DMG makes the obvious comment that lots of low levels may not be a match for a single high level. But that question is the point of this thread, so that's why I made the comment that I did.

With regards to your EL predication comment. You are absolutely correct. But I am also right. The thing to remember is that EL=party level is not a fair fight. EL=party level is a fight the party should win, losing 20% or less of their resources. EL +4 is a fair fight, where either side should have a 50-50 chance of winning. EL +5 is a situation where the monsters should win.

Assuming your party has four tenth level pcs, A party four tenth level opposing characters would be EL 14 (or EL 10 +4).

So going back to the original EL calculations, how many 1st level characters would be a fair fight for a level 10 character. EL starts at 10 for the 10th level character. Move it down to EL 6 for single character instead of party of four. Move it back up to EL 10 for a fair fight (EL +4). Then do the math for multiple EL 1 opposing characters. (start at 1 for EL 1, then double the number of characters and add 2 to the EL, brings you to 16 1st level characters at EL 9. Estimate 24 1st levels at EL 10).

Again, though, this is just the math system that the DMG recommends. They point out as you say that this may overestimate or underestimate the EL for a party, especially in the situation of lots of low EL creatures.