Scaling the Caster Classes Back

[ptolemy18]

From the front page of enworld.org:

"There was also a comment about scaling the non-caster classes up, while scaling the caster classes (specifically the wizard) back."

(imagine the following said in a half-serious, half-funny, "joking on the square" voice
NOOOOOOOO! DAMN YOU, WIZARDS OF THE COAST!!!!!

*sigh* As if all the nerfing from 3.0 to 3.5 wasn't enough. (Goodbye, 3.0 Summon Monster lists!) Remove all the cool abilities of spellcasters. Make it so that spellcasters are just tactical support for martial characters, whose do nothing but shoot an energy bolt every round. Because of course if you're adding increased resource management to *all* classes and taking away the "wizard runs out of spells and becomes totally weak and useless" aspect of wizards, then the wizard has to become weaker on the top end because their one "balancing aspect" -- that of running out of spells -- has been removed. Argggh!

In almost every high fantasy setting -- I'm sure people can think of a few that are different, but basically, in almost every setting -- powerful wizards are The Biggest Badasses Around. From 1e on, they've basically been the class for hardcore roleplayers who didn't mind having to memorize a lot of spells and start off weak with the promise of getting really buff later. It sounds like they're getting away from that now. Which -- I'm just gonna say it, speaking as someone who nearly always plays wizards and sorcerers, or fake wizards in the form of clerics with funky domains who never memorize enough healing spells, I must say -- SUCKS.

I'm just gonna be selfish and honest and admit: all the characters I ever play are weird specialist wizards and sorcerers and any rule that nerfs them drives me crazy! I guess my hopes of getting "Polymorph Other" back to the 3.0 version (hey, it's not game-breaking! Your polymorphed enemies can fly, hop or crawl away and then come back and get revenge later! That's not quite the same as dying!) are dashed forever....

Cue the counter-arguments:
* "Go play another game, like Ars Magica or Mage, if you just wanna geek out having a really strong wizard!" Well, sure, I love those games... but I love D&D too... :/
* "You haven't seen 4th edition yet so you don't know what it's like! Maybe it'll be awesome!" Well, true... but if the designers of the game are saying something that translates in my language to "We intend to make the game suck more," then of course I'm going to be worried and whine and complain on the Internet.


*Aside* from that, I'm kind of interested in 4e...

 

[Howndawg]

Wizards are the biggest badasses; until some loincloth wearing barbarian runs them through with a sword .

Howndawg

 

[ptolemy18]

Wizards are the biggest badasses; until some loincloth wearing barbarian runs them through with a sword .

That's right; lower the wizards hit points to 1d2 for all I care, but let them keep their beautiful, beautiful so-called "gamebreaker" spells.

 

[Branduil]

Making a class weak early on is a horrible way to balance them being ridiculously overpowered later on. Likewise, giving them overpowered spells and then "balancing" them by making them limited was a bad idea. I'm glad they're finally moving away from those misguided ideas about balance.

 

[William Ronald]

I think that the best approach is to make characters effectiva at all levels, whether they are spell casters or non-spell casters. Perhaps one thing that can be done is to make sure that in an confrontation between a non-spellcaster character of equal level, a spell caster will win 50 percent of the time on average. (Note: Smarter players can outwit other players, but that is something related to the players not the character classes.)

Perhaps a good approach is to make characters at all levels roughly equal in power, but doing very different things. (My advice for wizards: maintaining distance is a good strategy.)

 

[Varianor Abroad]

Doesn't this have to do with the new class spread from 1-30 which is supposed to include spells going up to (what is it?) level 25? It doesn't sound like a nerf, just that you don't get to the current 9th level spells and whatnot until after level 20.

 

[Irda Ranger]

"You haven't seen 4th edition yet so you don't know what it's like! Maybe it'll be awesome!"

I pick this one.

Make it so that spellcasters are just tactical support for martial characters, whose do nothing but shoot an energy bolt every round.

I guess that means that Fighters are just meat shields for wizards, who do nothing but swing a sword every round.

This is exactly what they're getting as by "Class Roles." We each play our part. No one member of the party dominates all others - even at 25th level.

I also disagree with your "do nothing by shoot an energy bolt" comments. My current understanding is that the generic energy bolt exists, but it is the 'last resort' the mage uses once all his per-day and per-encounter resources are exhausted. It's not great, but it keeps him in the fight better than resorting to a crossbow.

In almost every high fantasy setting -- I'm sure people can think of a few that are different, but basically, in almost every setting -- powerful wizards are The Biggest Badasses Around.

And they probably still can be, in a defensive 1:1 scenario. They are the 'Controllers.' You simply cannot approach them if they don't want to be approached. Their towers are inviolate. Etc. However, if they wander out without some Defenders to protect them, a Striker might take them down with a surprise one-hit-knockout. Or if they have Defenders, a well balanced party with Leaders, Defenders, Strikers and/or Controllers of their own will still be able to take them.

To me, this is better than simply "I'm Elminster*, therefore I win."

*Sub in Raistlin, Boris, Khelben, Bigby, Tzass Tam, etc. as appropriate.

 

[Irda Ranger]

to include spells going up to (what is it?) level 25?

We know that level 25 spells exist, not that 25 is the top. There's most likely 30 spell levels supported in the Core - one for each level of Wizard supported in the Core.

 

[Jack99]

To me, this is better than simply "I'm Elminster*, therefore I win."

*Sub in Raistlin, Boris, Khelben, Bigby, Tzass Tam, etc. as appropriate.

Boris?

I thought I had a decent grasp of the various NPCs around.. Who is Boris?


PS: Could have left it at Elminster, since he pretty much pwns everybody

 

[Remathilis]

Anything that takes the rogue and keeps his constant skill improvement worthwhile in a world of mage hand, find traps, knock, silence, invisibility, spider climb, comprehend languages, and true seeing is A-OK in my book.