Scarred Lands: Ask the Sage [Version 3.65729 with Upgrades!]

[Harlock]

You and Trickstergod said that the gods were archetypes, but that's a good thing, not a bad thing. We agree on that aspect -- the SL gods are strongly archetyped. I still don't see why, though if we're just not seeing eye to eye, we can just agree to disagree. I'm here for ideas on making the SL work for me, not to sow dissent.

Well, what do you want then? I explaned why I thought it was a good thing. We agree to disagree, that's fine with me. We do not see eye to eye on why that is good. For me, the pantheon works as is and quite well. To me it isn't flat, because it is a subjective thing. I didn't think you were sowing dissent, and I doubt anyone here thinks you are. Let's try a new approach...

Instead of us telling you why we like it and why it works for us, why don't you try telling us what it is you want? You keep referring to WotC pantheon gods, but to be honest, I've never played any of those settings for an appreciable amount of time, so do not mind if they are similar... simply because I am ignorant of that fact for the most part. What kind of texture would you like to see woven into the tapestry of the SL pantheon?

 

[Parlan]

OK, you have a point here. I'll give you that, and I should have thought of this. For the most part, though, the 8 stick very close to the archetypes -- closer than in most worlds.

<snip snip>

Certainly the followers of the gods are different from each other, I have no issue there. But still, look at the gods again: to me, it looks like Chardun is the same entity that is Bane/Hextor/Kain...

I think the thing that makes the SL pantheon cool is the continued existence of Titan-worshippers. Since the Titan-worshippers are the “real bad guys” the God-worshippers have a reason to unite, and you can require clerics of Corean working with clerics of Belsameth.

Having a common foe OUTSIDE the pantheon makes the patheon much more interesting for me.

As a player, I like having fewer gods because it is simpler. I enjoy finding out about them in game, but when there’s a pantheon with dozens of gods, it’s harder to figure out what each one stands for.

Also, when pantheons get overly large, my eyes start to glaze over. Why are there multiple LG gods? It seems like sometime it’s required to have a separate forge god and knightly god, but why couldn’t one god (Corean) encompass both of these aspects? I prefer it that way.

Sorry to bring in oversimplified RW religion, but God is portrayed with much more fire and brimstone in the Old Testament, and more love thy neighbor in the New Testament.

I.e., separate aspects of one deity.

 

[Nightfall]

First of all thanks to all that have participated in this thread.

Harlock, you might get xtra XP for this effort. (Also will say you will never have to worry about me expanding the panethon. Demon cults and such sure, but they don't count for obvious reasons. 18 gods is enough for me)

Mark let me go back and say when I said Geniune, I meant gods I could see and understand more clearly than say Faerunian gods. Faerunian gods just pop in and out at almost random points. The Scarred Lands gods BUILT their beliefs by helping out and giving the people what they wanted. They might be distant and aloof as Harlock said, but they are still intimately tied to their worshippers. They gave and gave and the people gave back. The titans, they just exist. This isn't to say this dichtomy isn't good. It is. The titans SHOULD be different and it should be that they are as powerful as gods. Unlike the Faerunian gods and their many racial deities, the Scarred Lands gods went from one worshipper to the next. They didn't just have a group and say "Hey worship us!" They went around convincing them that THEIR point of view was an accurate representation of the world. That their morality had some meaning. That unlike the titans, their powers while more limited in some fashion, were worth the sacrifices. Indeed the god cults before the coming of Mesos were mostly a way of gods showing the people that if they believed in something it meant more than that just "a code" or a "way of life." That they would be rewarded for it as best they could. They've been persecuted by the followers of the titans, and for keeping the faith, they've been rewarded. I'd like to see how well most of the Faerunian panethon would have lasted if say the Draconic Gods decided the mortal races weren't in their best interest. That's kind of my point. There's a sense of realism and a deep player understanding that most DMs can see. It might be simplistic, but there you go. Also unlike Bane, Chardun was NEVER mortal. He never cared about such concerns. In comparsion to Hextor, Chardun also has more converts and plenty more nobles following his credo. That again highlights some of the differences to me about Chardun in comparison to other LE gods of D&D lore. But again like Harlock said, these gods are indeed falliable. But they aren't failable in the sense of overweening pride. They are failable in the sense they exist as much in the PEOPLE as they do in the planes. They are people. And that's probably why many follow them. They are more than just the sum of their ideals.

Parlan,

I'd be less concerned about Madriel coming down to kick your ass. She rarely does the ass kicking. Mostly she'll just send down an angel to rebuke you. That's about the extent of her raging. Now if you said that about Vangal...or something equally stupid, you'd be in a lot more trouble.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Well, what do you want then? I explaned why I thought it was a good thing. We agree to disagree, that's fine with me. We do not see eye to eye on why that is good. For me, the pantheon works as is and quite well. To me it isn't flat, because it is a subjective thing. I didn't think you were sowing dissent, and I doubt anyone here thinks you are. Let's try a new approach...

I only refer to the GH and FR pantheons because I assume people are generally familiar with them. Most D&D pantheons I've seen have a LG god of paladins, a LE god of tyrants, a CN god of trickery, a LN "judge", a NG healer, and so on... and the SL gods are exactly that.

I don't like these archetypes anywhere, certainly not in GH and FR. But... GH and FR have other gods too, more interesting and 'developed' gods.

Instead of us telling you why we like it and why it works for us, why don't you try telling us what it is you want? You keep referring to WotC pantheon gods, but to be honest, I've never played any of those settings for an appreciable amount of time, so do not mind if they are similar... simply because I am ignorant of that fact for the most part. What kind of texture would you like to see woven into the tapestry of the SL pantheon?

That's a good question. Here's a link to Sean Reynolds' Deities of the Faithful:
http://www.montecook.com/arch_stuff32.html

While these aren't 'perfect' in any way, they are more creative than most I've seen. Examples:

Enoran is the god of death. He's interesting, though, because he's an *elven* god of death -- he's seldom even acknowledged, since elves are only rarely able to accept their own mortality after centuries of life.

Korven is the god of protection and defense. He's a halfling god, but otherwise typical as a "paladin god". More interesting than what he is now is what he was: the high priest of Jarvor, until Jarvor was slain defending his people. Korven ascended to take his place. Few realize, though, that even Jarvor was not the original... he, too, was high priest of a slain god. It gives him a sombre background that develops as characters (as well as players) learn his story.

Kurzana is an excellent example of deities growing and changing. Once a goddess of caves, she is now the goddess of buildings and construction. (Also, the faith considers killing spiders bad luck -- an interesting point of flavor to be explored later, perhaps, but not a major issue.)

Thoin is a great example of alignment rifts within a faith. While the main body of worshippers passively protect dwarvenkind from its agressors, there are groups within the faith that are proactive, even to the point of genocide... some go so far as to claim that even gnomes and humans must be driven from the underground.

Valkon is a nature deity, but is lawful where most are N or CN. Vogg is a destroyer, but simply because he has trouble understanding (and caring, for that matter) that he's causing problems for others. Shehaane, goddess of mists, is so moon-aligned that her moods swing violently -- sometimes so far that she apologizes for her lapses...

Each one has a personality and depth, as though they are real. They've developed, they've changed, their worshippers have major dogmatic issues to work out. They add to a setting instead of fading into the background.

 

[CRGreathouse]

IHaving a common foe OUTSIDE the pantheon makes the patheon much more interesting for me.

As a player, I like having fewer gods because it is simpler. I enjoy finding out about them in game, but when there’s a pantheon with dozens of gods, it’s harder to figure out what each one stands for.

I like both of these aspects. I might prefer a few more gods, but that's not a big issue -- it's much better than the flock of pantheons in FR.

I just want more depth to the gods: more personlity and less boilerplate.

 

[Nightfall]

Funny I have to say I DIDN'T care that much for the faithful gods. I will say that of the two mentioned, those two ARE racial gods. So I'm kind of biased in that respect but I feel I need to toss out most of the racial gods until I have a kind of "paragon of the race" deity. That's why I can deal with Goran, Nalthalos, Hwydd, and That Which Abides/Jandevos(The Forsaken Elf god.)

A neutral God of death is always something I feel is necessary in any campaign.

Also SL gods NEVER fade into the background. Trust me. There's always something in their sphere of influence that's going on.

I like both of these aspects. I might prefer a few more gods, but that's not a big issue -- it's much better than the flock of pantheons in FR.

I just want more depth to the gods: more personlity and less boilerplate.

Not sure I see that as I do see Corean having a personality along with Enkili and Hedrada, plus the rest of the 8. They might not be as flashy as Mormo or Mesos, but they exist and are apart of the world.

 

[CRGreathouse]

("Mark"?)

Mark let me go back and say when I said Geniune, I meant gods I could see and understand more clearly than say Faerunian gods. Faerunian gods just pop in and out at almost random points. The Scarred Lands gods BUILT their beliefs by helping out and giving the people what they wanted. They might be distant and aloof as Harlock said, but they are still intimately tied to their worshippers. They gave and gave and the people gave back.

Hmm... I guess. I wouldn't base my argument that the SL pantheon is good because it's better than FR, though. FR has serious problems with its Ten Thousand Immortals.

The titans, they just exist. This isn't to say this dichtomy isn't good. It is. The titans SHOULD be different and it should be that they are as powerful as gods.

I like the god/titan divide in SL.

Unlike the Faerunian gods and their many racial deities, the Scarred Lands gods went from one worshipper to the next. They didn't just have a group and say "Hey worship us!" They went around convincing them that THEIR point of view was an accurate representation of the world. That their morality had some meaning. That unlike the titans, their powers while more limited in some fashion, were worth the sacrifices. Indeed the god cults before the coming of Mesos were mostly a way of gods showing the people that if they believed in something it meant more than that just "a code" or a "way of life." That they would be rewarded for it as best they could.

I don't know. It seems to me that this is just a world in an earlier stage, while other worlds just have the clergy spread the word about the faith itself. In D&D I don't consider the idea of "Worship us and we'll give you power" creative.

Also unlike Bane, Chardun was NEVER mortal. He never cared about such concerns. In comparsion to Hextor, Chardun also has more converts and plenty more nobles following his credo.

I can't immediately tell if this is just icing or the 'tip of the iceberg' in differences. It's certainly something I'll have to think about.

But again like Harlock said, these gods are indeed falliable. But they aren't failable in the sense of overweening pride. They are failable in the sense they exist as much in the PEOPLE as they do in the planes. They are people. And that's probably why many follow them. They are more than just the sum of their ideals.

This is really what I wanted to hear. So far they haven't come across as people, and they have come across as just their ideals -- no more.

What have I missed and where can I read about it? Do I just need to 'read between the lines' a little harder, or is this a progression through SL products?

 

[Nightfall]

Definately more of a progression in some respects. But I think if you read a little more into Divine and the Defeated along with SLCS: Ghelspad you can see more. (Plus having PG: Clerics and Druids is kind of a plus.)

While it is true that arguing cosmology and god stuff comparisons is a little futile, it's easy to do however since you already have a basis in those worlds.

No but that's how most religions work back then. The conquer gods were the ones that had the most power to offer.

 

[FormidableDice]

OK, here's one for you SL champions!

Who were Hedrada's titan parents? I've been able to find just about every other god's parentage but his.

For extra credit: I also could not find any mention of Nalthalos, Sethris, or Nemorga's sires.

Thanks in advance!

 

[eryndel]

OK, here's one for you SL champions!

Who were Hedrada's titan parents? I've been able to find just about every other god's parentage but his.

For extra credit: I also could not find any mention of Nalthalos, Sethris, or Nemorga's sires.

Thanks in advance!

Denev and Golthain (Divine and Defeated)

Werner

Edit: Oh, and Sethris was from Belsameth and a Demon Lord.