D&D 5E Schrodinger's Loot

[Nytmare]

Player: So we made up some guys, what's there to do around here?
DM: Goblins in the forest, a dungeon full of spiders, rumours of a dragon in the mountains, and an ogre fort in the hills.
Player: Hmm... I can't decide. Any rumours about magic items they might have? If one of those places holds a nice magic sword I'll head there first.
DM: ...

If there's a rumor about a sword, and the rumors are based off of anything approaching fact, that means that the story has taken a peek inside the box.

"There are stories of a hedge knight who led a party of mercenaries into the mountains to vanquish the dragon decades ago. The stories are numerous and most seem to be far more fiction than fact, but they all seem to agree on one thing. The nameless knight had a silver sword that shone like a midnight sun when he whispered to it."

That also means that, as a DM, if you've populated a treasure with a magic sword, you've taken on the responsibility to either make sure that there's still a magic sword when the players get there or come up with a reason why it's not there anymore.

There isn't some kind of magic window that lets players peek into a treasure chest to see if they want what's inside yet.

 

[Saagael]

Player: So we made up some guys, what's there to do around here?
DM: Goblins in the forest, a dungeon full of spiders, rumours of a dragon in the mountains, and an ogre fort in the hills.
Player: Hmm... I can't decide. Any rumours about magic items they might have? If one of those places holds a nice magic sword I'll head there first.
DM: ...

Why does the DM need to know if there's a magic sword held by any of the enemies? The character can't know with any certainty (they shouldn't expect to), thus there's no reason to roll, as the certainty of what treasure exists where doesn't matter yet.

Besides, the DM in your situation sounds like a well-prepped DM (running a sandbox style game). This system seems like it is there for a DM who hasn't had much prep, or is new to the game. Good DMs will always do what they want, regardless of "random loot generation" rules.

 

[howandwhy99]

Why didn't the DM roll the treasure when he created the encounters? If he's prepared enough to know there's an ogre fort in the hills, he's prepared enough to roll (or simply choose!) its loot. It's not like the rules say you roll after the encounter is done.

That's the problem with this whole "Schrodinger's Loot" argument. The DM opens the box, not the players, and he decides when to open it.

To try and answer your question, I think part of this is because their are 2 Difficulty ratings in DDn: Encounter Level & then Easy/Average/Tough (which is called Difficulty).

For a lot of us who create sandboxes, the world already has level 1 areas (on average) and level 2 areas, and so on. If the players want tougher encounters, then they delve deeper, so to speak.

Now perhaps the variance within the difficulty of a given level, WotC's Difficulty measure, is confusing or too discrete. Perhaps there exists the presumption (from any one, readers, designers, me?) that encounters are still tailored rather than status quo, so level-appropriate design might still be an assumed default.

Personally, I could see just designing areas first and then rating them afterward by XP. I don't really care for the treasure tables as they stand, but they reminiscent to AD&D.

 

[LostSoul]

Why didn't the DM roll the treasure when he created the encounters? If he's prepared enough to know there's an ogre fort in the hills, he's prepared enough to roll (or simply choose!) its loot. It's not like the rules say you roll after the encounter is done.

He doesn't yet know if the encounters will be Easy, Average, or Tough.

If there's a rumor about a sword, and the rumors are based off of anything approaching fact, that means that the story has taken a peek inside the box.

At this point, how does the DM decide what treasures to put there?

Why does the DM need to know if there's a magic sword held by any of the enemies? The character can't know with any certainty (they shouldn't expect to), thus there's no reason to roll, as the certainty of what treasure exists where doesn't matter yet.

Player agency.

Besides, the DM in your situation sounds like a well-prepped DM (running a sandbox style game). This system seems like it is there for a DM who hasn't had much prep, or is new to the game. Good DMs will always do what they want, regardless of "random loot generation" rules.

Good guidelines are helpful, especially for DMs who are going to do a lot of prep before the game starts.

 

[Saagael]

Player agency.

That doesn't really apply, because there is nothing to be acted upon in the game world that can determine what treasure is had, short of going and killing the beasties and seeing what treasure they had.

They can attempt to influence this decision by asking around for rumors or using divination spells, but the former may or may not be correct (as deemed by the DM and the rolls the player made), and the latter either sees the DM determining what treasure exists, whether randomly or by DM fiat.

In either case, the treasure didn't change, as is the assertion. It was what it always was, the players just collapsed a wave of possibilities into a particle of reality when they acted.

 

[Nytmare]

At this point, how does the DM decide what treasures to put there?

Roll a die, pick something off a list, ask your sister, tear a bunch of pages out of the book and throw them down the cellar steps to see which one goes furthest... I mean, it's kinda basic DM stuff, right?

Are you asking this question for real, or are you just playing devil's advocate?

[INDENT] Are there rumors about a sword? [YES/NO][INDENT]If YES, are the rumors true? [YES/NO/MAYBE][INDENT]If YES, make sure there's a sword in the treasure.
If NO, make sure there's no sword in the treasure.
If MAYBE, who cares?
[/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT]

Or, if you want to build it from the other direction:

[INDENT]Is there a magic sword in the treasure? [YES/NO/MAYBE]
[INDENT]If YES - Make sure there's a sword in the treasure
If NO - Make sure there's no sword in the treasure
If MAYBE - Figure it out later
[/INDENT]Are there rumors about a sword in the treasure?  [YES/NO][INDENT]If YES - Tell them that there's a sword in the treasure

Are the rumors true? [YES/NO/MAYBE][INDENT]If YES - Make sure there's a sword in the treasure
If NO - Make sure there's no sword in the treasure
If MAYBE - Figure it out later
[/INDENT]If NO - Do not tell them that there's a sword in the treasure
[/INDENT][/INDENT]

 

[kerleth]

He doesn't yet know if the encounters will be Easy, Average, or Tough.

There are experience guidelines that are used to determine if an encounter is easy, average, or tough for a given party. Using these guidelines is as effective "balance wise" as a monster who WOTC thinks is yay tough and so includes it's own "individualized treasure code" based on that.

 

[Blackwarder]

Not really, whate if the party decided to do somthing else and then come back? They might gain a level on the mean time.

Warder

 

[LostSoul]

In either case, the treasure didn't change, as is the assertion. It was what it always was, the players just collapsed a wave of possibilities into a particle of reality when they acted.

The players want to go on the most lucrative adventure possible. To do so, they need to know what treasures are to be had. The DM provides them with this information. If the DM doesn't know (because he doesn't know what level they will be when they get there, and doesn't know if the encounters will be Easy, Average, or Tough), then the players can't make the decision to go on the most lucrative adventure possible.

(Whatever "lucrative" means to these players at this time.)

Roll a die, pick something off a list, ask your sister, tear a bunch of pages out of the book and throw them down the cellar steps to see which one goes furthest... I mean, it's kinda basic DM stuff, right?

Yes, but it's a pretty big component of the system. It's easy enough to choose a treasure, but balancing risk vs. reward can get tricky. That's why you have guidelines. Guidelines that you can't apply if you don't know what level the PCs will be when they encounter the encounter don't help.

There are experience guidelines that are used to determine if an encounter is easy, average, or tough for a given party. Using these guidelines is as effective "balance wise" as a monster who WOTC thinks is yay tough and so includes it's own "individualized treasure code" based on that.

Yes, but the DM doesn't know what level the PCs will be when they encounter the goblins, ogres, spider-dungeon, or dragon - since that choice is in the player's hands - so he can't use the guidelines provided to generate treasure.

 

[Libramarian]

I think the whole schrodinger's loot problem is based on a flawed premise. Saying that the same group of guards offers better treasure to a 1st level party than a 5th level one is an illusion, because it's NOT the same group of guards.

If the same characters loot a dungeon at 1st level, then come back at 5th level, should they really be surprised that there is no more awesome treausre there?

If you have two seperate groups in seperate campaigns at seperate levels, than the circumstances surrounding the encounter are obviously different and having different loot makes perfect sense.

If the same group fights similar enemies (trolls, as an example) at different points in the campaign, the creatures having different stuff to take is logical.

Any given group is only going to get one result. The one appropriate for their current condition. It only APPEARS to be a problem from the outside, in the dm's corner.

Why is it logical that a troll gets worse stuff as the PCs level up?

Homemade sandbox adventures seem to offer the biggest potential problem, and the answer is simple. Figure the relative difficulty from the point at which the pc's start the sandbox. If they take great risks early they can get great rewards. If instead they take more average risks and work there way up to being able to get the good stuff, they are only mimicking a system that has been used to great success in a multitude of rpg's, both tabletop and computer.

I'm not sure what you're suggesting here, can you rephrase? Who is mimicking what system?