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Scott Thorne, a retailer, comments on recent events

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
Is it true that WotC has stated that for all future material the Essentials versions of classes are the presumed version being used.

I realize that in no way means that you can't still use the older version side by side. Nothing from the original books is mechanically out-dated, as was the case in some 3E stuff. But, assuming this is true, wouldn't that still create a feeling of obsolescence to the "old school" options?

It entirely depends on what it is they are designing. If they are making entirely new classes or new builds of existing classes... I imagine they might very well decide to stay with the Essentials format. But all the Essentials format really means is that rather than having a power choice at every level... sometimes you'll have an assigned ability instead. Does that really affect anything? Only so much as stuff like the Martial classes won't have new Daily powers created for them anymore... but then again, after PH, Martial Power, and Martial Power II... it's not like any of the Martial classes need any more Daily powers.

As far as I'm aware... the Essential Arcane, Divine, and Primal classes still use at-wills, encounters, and dailies, which means those powers are all still useful for the classic 4E classes. And the feats work across the board as well. So new "Essential" stuff that is designed will basically be universal 4E stuff... with the exception of the occasional level abilities that are created when a new build is made. Speaking personally... if the Heroes of Shadow book has a whole host of powers and feats plus has leveled "class abilities"... I will forgive them for designing those things that my non-Essential classes can't use. Because when you get right down to it... those abilities are such a minor focus of the character power design.
 

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BryonD

Hero
Because when you get right down to it... those abilities are such a minor focus of the character power design.
Fair enough. I completely accept that.

But, I still used virtually all my 3E stuff after 3.5 came out. Sure, I used the 3.5 monk and that REPLACED the 3E monk. Clearly a distinction. But they weren't all the different really, just cleaned up.

I certainly had no problem forgiving them for making me recall that Wilderness Lore was now covered by Survival. No big deal.

So, bottom line, I'll stick to my position above. Call Essentials the same as 3.5 is more political that thoughtful and saying Essentials is not readily comparable to 3.5 is more political than thoutghful.
 


Steel_Wind

Legend
I love the synergy of moving goal posts and sour grapes.

For months now we've been hearing report after report that Paizo is matching or beating WotC. And every time the claim was met with howls that the source was unverifiable therefore their claim was automatically proven false.

Suddenly it might be true, but is all meaningless because this was the plan all along....

I believe based on my experience that DDI is successful, BUT 4E is still going from ok downward in total fanbase, regardless of what media you look at. Yes, the book trade is taken the brunt of it. But that doesn't mean it is simply a one to one transition from paper to electronic. It is nowhere near that.

The change in sales is a composite of both fewer players and some players switching to DDI.

No kidding.

What is even more hilarious is the suggestion that Paizo's off-the-shelf sales dwarf Paizo's own direct to customer sales program.

They don't.

Paizo's ENTIRE business model since the day it was spun off from Wizards of the Coast was premised upon selling directly to its customers to remain profitable. It is a business model that Paizo, to this day, employs to remain profitable and pursue a product release schedule that is several times larger than WotC's entire RPG and accessories line in terms of #SKUs.

The same adventures that WotC insists are not profitable are, in fact, profitable for Paizo. In fact, the Adventure Path line is profitable before a single copy of an AP is sold at retail BECAUSE of Paizo's emphasis on subscriber sales.

Indeed, you can subscribe to entire categories of products that Paizo sells. Thousands and thousands of fans do. It's a regular influx of cash that pays the bills at Paizo and contributes handsomely to their bottom line. Does it antagonize their retailers? Yes, it does. But that does not seem to have hurt them in terms of shelf space in the past 30 months.

In fact, I am dead certain that the average subscriber to Paizo spends AT LEAST three times the amount per month in dollars than a WotC subscriber pays. My guess is that after taking into account the additional product lines that Paizo subscribers also subscribe to, that the true number is four (maybe even five) times the revenue per subscriber, per month.

Does WotC have four to five times the subscribers that Paizo does? They might; and they might not, too.

Do I think that Paizo earns a greater amount of gross revenue by selling its products directly to customers in a given year than WotC does?

It's probably reasonably close, but overall? Yes, I do.

The net revenue on pure digital products is generally higher than a printed product of course. Still, the point ot take away is that 4E is cancelling products while Paizo is adding them. One game is clearly going up in popularity; the other one is going down.

I don't wish harm to WotC's overall success. They are the gateway game and acquisition arm of the hobby. If they suffer, we will all ultimately suffer throughout the hobby; manufacturer and fan alike. But do I wish pure misery and financial doom upon a product line of randomized card packs intended to be used as part of each RPG session?

Yes, I do. It is an idea utterly contemptuous of the core gamer and is worthy of our collective scorn and derision.
 
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shadzar

Banned
Banned
I don't wish harm to WotC's overall success. They are the gateway game and acquisition arm of the hobby. If they suffer, we will all ultimately suffer throughout the hobby; manufacturer and fan alike.

I don't think so. I think the OGL pretty much screwed WotC, otherwise 4th wouldn't have been needed to move away form that system to set D&D apart from every other game that used and continues to use it.

WotC stepped up to the RPG table with a respectable bank and sat down with the OGL and went all-in with the first hand and caught a few people and put them out of the game, but opened a few seats for some new players. As time went on WotC played the hands and started to break even then got HASBRO to back them so they could try some more betting tactics. All the while new players kept coming to the table and whittling away at WotC's chips with each new hand played. Paizo kept watching WotC tells and knew just how to push them into making bad bets. WotC started having to fold on 4th street and it has gotten down to Paizo and WotC, a few more respectable players that aren't really chips leaders, and the consumer that has the largest bank of all. Now WotC is looking at their hand on the river, and noticing they are up it without a paddle, as Paizo has about an even amount of chips. HASBRO is getting tired of standing and watching to see when they will get the money back and telling WotC it is time to start going all-in every hand and either hurry up and win it, or get out of the game so HASBRO can sit down.

This is where we are now. WotC is about to have to go all-in every hand or slowly continue to lose their chips to Paizo, and not win many hands from the consumer either. They may have started as a chips leader, but are now finding they wish they could just kiss their sister and go back to breaking even. Each new attempt to go all-in will likely result in WotC only taking the blinds, as Paizo plays out the full hands and taking more an more chips from everyone else, until WotC is left with just enough to pay back HASBRO, then HASBRO walks away leaving WotC with no more chips to bet, and out of the game.
 

Banshee16

First Post
But do I wish pure misery and financial doom upon a product line of randomized card packs intended to be used as part of each RPG session?

Yes, I do. It is an idea utterly contemptuous of the core gamer and is worthy of our collective scorn and derision.

Is this product line just hyperbole? Or is this actually planned? Randomized card packs intended as part of an RPG session? I hadn't read anything about that. If that's the way they're trying to take things....ew.....just........ewwwwww.

I'm hoping this is just hyperbole.

Banshee
 


Banshee16

First Post

So, once you use and "discard" a card, does that mean you're supposed to throw it out? You use them once in your game and throw them out? Or simply use them, and take them out of your deck?

Regardless.....I wouldn't allow a player to use them in my game. I would *assume* that the use of these cards would be entirely be dependent upon DM fiat. If the DM doesn't support them, then they can't be used.

Maybe I'm wrong.

I can't say that I'm surprised to see them. I remember predicting something similar, back in 2008.....so this is just basically seeing the materialization of something I figured would happen.

Banshee
 

Zil

Explorer
In fact, I am dead certain that the average subscriber to Paizo spends AT LEAST three times the amount per month in dollars than a WotC subscriber pays. My guess is that after taking into account the additional product lines that Paizo subscribers also subscribe to, that the true number is four (maybe even five) times the revenue per subscriber, per month.
It wouldn't surprise me at all if you are correct. I'm subscribed to four of Paizo's lines so that adds up to some significant change some months, especially if you consider that I'm always adding extra things to my monthly shipment. It's certainly a lot more than the cost of a DDI subscription - easily 5 times (assuming the more expensive month-by-month DDI subscription) minimum, but much more on average.

If, as some say, many 4E fans have stopped buying printed books and are instead opting to only buy DDI, that has to hurt. That's a significant revenue stream that they are cannibalizing.
 
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Tuft

First Post
So, once you use and "discard" a card, does that mean you're supposed to throw it out? You use them once in your game and throw them out? Or simply use them, and take them out of your deck?

Regardless.....I wouldn't allow a player to use them in my game. I would *assume* that the use of these cards would be entirely be dependent upon DM fiat. If the DM doesn't support them, then they can't be used.

Maybe I'm wrong.

I can't say that I'm surprised to see them. I remember predicting something similar, back in 2008.....so this is just basically seeing the materialization of something I figured would happen.

Banshee

Reviewed here: http://www.enworld.org/forum/genera...ollectible-cards-come-d-d-24.html#post5436623
 

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