Scott Thorne, a retailer, comments on recent events

[Chainsaw Mage]

You cannot play a 3.0 and 3.5 ranger together.

We tried this once. One guy had a 3.0 ranger (elf, I believe) and the other guy had a 3.5 ranger (half-orc). I warned them that they cannot do this, but they refused to listen. What happened? You guessed it . . . only fifteen minutes into the session our books began shaking and spitting and soon black, oily smoke belched out of them. The PHB, DMG, and even the MM were completely melted down into a useless pile of slag. It was a disaster.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

We tried this once. One guy had a 3.0 ranger (elf, I believe) and the other guy had a 3.5 ranger (half-orc). I warned them that they cannot do this, but they refused to listen. What happened? You guessed it . . . only fifteen minutes into the session our books began shaking and spitting and soon black, oily smoke belched out of them. The PHB, DMG, and even the MM were completely melted down into a useless pile of slag. It was a disaster.

Another point of favor for 4e then - when it melts down, it does so in an eco-friendly manner ;p

 

[thewok]

Are you really going to compare an MMO to to a tabletop rpg and expect not to get laughed at?

The comparison seems valid to me. Both are games that rely on math and random numbers to determine outcomes. The only real difference is that most MMOs keep the math secret, while tabletop RPGs have to keep it public. That math can be pristinely balanced, but the addition of even a single new item to the system can completely throw off the system and require changes.

Constant patches and tweaks are par for the course in an MMO environment. The crunch is all handled seamlessly in the background. If the developers make changes and adjustments here and there the average player needs to do nothing different. There are simply new physics at work in the computer fantasy realm.

If you've played WoW (or EQ2, or pretty much any MMO) before, then you know that this is not the case. Balance passes are never handled seamlessly. The smallest changes might call for swapping one piece of gear for another, but, generally, updates and balancing require examination of a character as a whole to maintain effectiveness, and, at its worst, can cause people to completely reallocate stat/talent points or to completely stop playing an old character and start fresh with a new one.

There was a time during Wrath of the Lich King when some people just stopped playing healing priests altogether simply because druids, paladins and shamans could heal better in any situation. I was forced to respec my Death Knight numerous times as the developers rebalanced the class, like the period of time when Unholy specs were completely unviable.

Constant rules changes in a tabletop rpg is a frustrating headache. People have to absorb and interpret the rules during actual play. You learn how to play a certain system until it becomes second nature. Then the rules can fade into the background once learned without intruding too much upon the actual playing.

I actually agree with this sentiment somewhat, but it's really a non-issue for me as I am a DDI subscriber (at least for the time being), but not a character optimizer (at least not like the guys on the CharOp forum). Updates to powers are fairly transparent to me for the most part.

I actually think the changes in games like WoW are worse than those that have happened in 4E--at least in so far as disruption to the game goes.

 

[Banshee16]

Not to derail the thread but they actual tested that saying on Mythbusters and it turns out the shock wave from a bullet fired into a barrel of water would kill a fish even if you missed them and kill all of them. Just thought I would mention it, I love that show.

Doesn't apply only to fish in barrels. I read in Nelson's Trafalgar, by Roy Adkins, that sailors were killed by canon balls passing through the air near them....the shockwave in the air cold be lethal.

Banshee

 

[Banshee16]

4dventure webpage was on WotC site in August 2007 with the countdown sometime in that month if that helps any.

Have to find my screenshot if i still have it to check the creation date for the 00:00:01 on the countdown, because I tried to catch it before it changed, but the page didn't change right away and still left people hanging in limbo.

That sounds about right...didn't that page come up at GenCon?

Banshee

 

[shadzar]

That sounds about right...didn't that page come up at GenCon?

Banshee

The page was up before it I think, but the countdown on the page came later.

Nobody knew what it was about, well many knew what it was about, but many others were trying to deny it due to denial being the first stage of grief.

Here is the best thing I can find dated with a countdown clock actually on it from August 16, 2007

4dventure countdown: Is it the end of the world, what is all this about? : Product Reviews Net

 

[BryonD]

Essentials was never to "fix the rules."

...

Essentials didn't change any rules at all and is in no way similar to 3.5, but it's "different" enough to, on a very superficial level, make a connection.

I have heard this, but I'm not certain if it was true or not, so please clarify for me....

Is it true that WotC has stated that for all future material the Essentials versions of classes are the presumed version being used.

I realize that in no way means that you can't still use the older version side by side. Nothing from the original books is mechanically out-dated, as was the case in some 3E stuff. But, assuming this is true, wouldn't that still create a feeling of obsolescence to the "old school" options?

I think calling 4E equal to 3.5 is putting spin way ahead of fair, unbiased assessment. But I also think calling the differences "very superficial" is just as far from the truth.

In both cases it seems to be people saying what they wish to be true in place of fair judgment.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

I have heard this, but I'm not certain if it was true or not, so please clarify for me....

Is it true that WotC has stated that for all future material the Essentials versions of classes are the presumed version being used.

Not that I am aware of; if they have i would be interested in a citation as some of the later of the traditional classes could do wiith more support.

I realize that in no way means that you can't still use the older version side by side. Nothing from the original books is mechanically out-dated, as was the case in some 3E stuff. But, assuming this is true, wouldn't that still create a feeling of obsolescence to the "old school" options?

I think calling 4E equal to 3.5 is putting spin way ahead of fair, unbiased assessment. But I also think calling the differences "very superficial" is just as far from the truth.

In both cases it seems to be people saying what they wish to be true in place of fair judgment.

This I would agree with.

 

[Vigilance]

Ah, a retailer is mad because someone is doing something in digital format.

WOTC, welcome to my world, circa 2003.

 

[Dumnbunny]

Is it true that WotC has stated that for all future material the Essentials versions of classes are the presumed version being used.

From the July Ampersand:

We’ve charted a new direction in class design with the Essentials products. It’s a direction we intend to use from here on out.