scry, buff, teleport...initiave?

[Infiniti2000]

Why no love for the Listen check? Allow one of those, too. How much noise does a teleport entrance make? I think you can make a legitimate RAW argument for "A battle", but I personally wouldn't.

In any case, you handle the encounter normally, including any checks for surprise.

 

[Zurai]

or you can you have combat round w/out and initiative count?

There's no difference between a "combat round" and a "round". Rounds last 6 seconds, and in most cases you can cast one buff spell a round.

There's nothing mechanically preventing people from doing the scry-buff-teleport-fry routine in said order with a surprise round at the end if the opponents did not detect the scry or teleport.

 

[JustinA]

Hopefully 4E will get rid of this cheese.

These are my houserules for teleport:

These rules apply to any spells of the Conjuration (Teleportation) type and similar effects. The gate spell can be used to avoid the distance limitation.

* You can only teleport a number of miles equal to your caster level.
* In addition to teleporting to a precise location you know, you can also choose to simply teleport in a given direction a certain distance. If you arrive in a location which is already occupied by a solid body, you become trapped in the Ethereal Plane (as per dimension door). Teleport without error will automatically deposit you at the nearest suitable surface, regardless of distance.
* Teleportation takes a number of rounds equal to the number of miles traveled (minimum of 1 round). During this time, characters at the destination of a teleport spell can make a Spot check (DC 20). If the check succeeds, they are aware of the incoming teleport. Spellcasters who are aware of the incoming teleport can attempt to counterspell the teleport (even though they are unable to see the caster). If the distance of the teleport is a mile or less, characters at the receiving end who spot the teleport will only have a surprise round in which to take actions.

You can ignore the first two bullet points. Its the last bullet point that solves this problem with teleporting.

Justin Alexander
http://www.thealexandrian.net

 

[Cephid]

Thanks all.
I'll have a think about it.

Had some fun with it the other day.
Teleported in, then set off a Radient assault in the surprise round dazing 3 mountain trolls. Won initiave (+14 modifier thanks to insightful divination) and unleashed a split ray, empowered disintegrate and took out 2 other enemies before the fight begun.

Everyone else was dead before they recovered from the Radient assault. Beautiful!

I am certain some pay back is on the way, and there will be an Anticipate Teleport waiting next time.

 

[Maldor]

These are my houserules for teleport:

These rules apply to any spells of the Conjuration (Teleportation) type and similar effects. The gate spell can be used to avoid the distance limitation.

* You can only teleport a number of miles equal to your caster level.
* In addition to teleporting to a precise location you know, you can also choose to simply teleport in a given direction a certain distance. If you arrive in a location which is already occupied by a solid body, you become trapped in the Ethereal Plane (as per dimension door). Teleport without error will automatically deposit you at the nearest suitable surface, regardless of distance.
* Teleportation takes a number of rounds equal to the number of miles traveled (minimum of 1 round). During this time, characters at the destination of a teleport spell can make a Spot check (DC 20). If the check succeeds, they are aware of the incoming teleport. Spellcasters who are aware of the incoming teleport can attempt to counterspell the teleport (even though they are unable to see the caster). If the distance of the teleport is a mile or less, characters at the receiving end who spot the teleport will only have a surprise round in which to take actions.

You can ignore the first two bullet points. Its the last bullet point that solves this problem with teleporting.

Justin Alexander

yeah and spellcasters might even use this gimp teleport if you drop is to 2nd level.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Had some fun with it the other day.
Teleported in, then set off a Radient assault in the surprise round dazing 3 mountain trolls. Won initiave (+14 modifier thanks to insightful divination) and unleashed a split ray, empowered disintegrate and took out 2 other enemies before the fight begun.

Isn't split ray +2, as well as empowered? How did you manage a 10th-level spell? Greater rod of empowering?

yeah and spellcasters might even use this gimp teleport if you drop is to 2nd level.

I pretty much agree. The first one doesn't help anything except force high-level characters to travel by horse. The second one is a completely useless change because it would be almost impossible to properly adjudicate, much less effectively use even in a 'real' world. The last one makes the spell worse than useless. It's not even good for escape unless you teleport away less than a mile at a time. "Let's all stand around for 5 rounds while we teleport back to our base 5 miles away and also while the bad guys keep beating on our motionless bodies." Of course, you probably intended the bodies to be "in transit" but you make no mention of what happens, nor what happens on a counterspell.

 

[JustinA]

I pretty much agree. The first one doesn't help anything except force high-level characters to travel by horse.

Yup. That was the intention and the effect. It's a flavor-based rule change for a specific campaign world.

The second one is a completely useless change because it would be almost impossible to properly adjudicate, much less effectively use even in a 'real' world.

This has not been my experience with the rule in practice. And since all the mechanics mentioned already used by various spells in 3.0 and 3.5, I guess I'm curious to know exactly which mechanic you'd have problems adjudicating.

The last one makes the spell worse than useless. It's not even good for escape unless you teleport away less than a mile at a time. "Let's all stand around for 5 rounds while we teleport back to our base 5 miles away and also while the bad guys keep beating on our motionless bodies." Of course, you probably intended the bodies to be "in transit" but you make no mention of what happens, nor what happens on a counterspell.

That is, in fact, the way my group has played it: During the teleport you are in transit. If you're blocked at your destination (by a counterspell or teleport-blocking spell), you're returned to your point of origin.

So the intention is clear, but you're right that -- if this was anything other than a house rule -- more explicit text would be appropriate.

Justin Alexander
http://www.thealexandrian.net

 

[mvincent]

Surprise round. You and your mates are all in on it... as is any of your enemies who happen to perceive ya.

Agree completely. Spot rolls for the enemy to participate in the surprise round.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

There's no difference between a "combat round" and a "round". Rounds last 6 seconds, and in most cases you can cast one buff spell a round.

There's nothing mechanically preventing people from doing the scry-buff-teleport-fry routine in said order with a surprise round at the end if the opponents did not detect the scry or teleport.

I could only find one place where the SRD references a 'round'

The Combat Round
Each round represents 6 seconds in the game world. A round presents an opportunity for each character involved in a combat situation to take an action.
...
Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on.

I don't disagree with how you run it, however by my reading of the above you need to have an initiative count to cast spells with a duration listed in rounds.... which means the combat sequence needs to have already started.. and the official surprise round only occurs pre-round #1

Is this argument pure semantics? yup.. but I think I am in the right forum for that


An interesting HR potential comes from Stephen Brust's work. Teleporting is safest and fastest when going to a prepared location.. a good 'run away' move. Its slower and less reliable when going to an non-prepared location.

 

[mvincent]

Is this argument pure semantics? yup.. but I think I am in the right forum for that

Semantically, your quote more seems to indicate that any spells cast before combat (i.e. outside of initiative) never end. :\