Sculpt Spell

[Mavrik]

I think you just have to look at the Feat in relation to others.... Widen Feat seems a kinda close type feat.
Sure it applies to more types of spells, and its an 100% increase (but so are some spells when you Sculpt) and Widen is a +3 level increase.

If you had a spell under the Widen Spell Feat could you still cast it as 20ft spell if you didn't want to hit party members. I think you have a possibility to not apply the same logic to all feats if you consider them in isolation
Mav

 

[Mistwell]

OK. I'll not disagree, but say that your reasing is too 'loose' for me.No, I'm not viewing it as five feats, but as one feat with 5 different options...which must be predetermined when the spell is prepared...much like all other metamagic feats. Bring something else to the argument besides you are wrong because I say so.

"Wizards and divine spellcasters must prepare their spells in advance." That usually includes area of effect, last time I checked.

Name one single metamagic feat that requires you to decide everything about it in advance. You don't have to determine the range (even though you can decide the range, as long as it is not beyond the max). You don't have to determine the duration (even though you can decide the duration, as long as it is not beyond the max). You don't have to determinte the target (even though you can decide the target, as long as the target is valid). So name me the metamagic feats you are talking about that require you to make the actual decisions on how to use them (and not whether or not to use them) at the time of preparation.

 

[Mavrik]

Your not deciding everything.... your making a decision on the feat altered section as you prepare the spell.. which is kind of what all meta feats do

still - your deciding to use this spell with no somatic when it usually has some
silent - your decing to use this spell with no verbal when it usually has some
sculpt - your deciding to use 40ft cone when it usually has a 20ft burst

I think you should also look at Delay Spell - that seems to be the only one that says you can alter the effect of the spell when cast no prepared... and that takes +3 spell levels

Mavrik

 

[Hypersmurf]

So name me the metamagic feats you are talking about that require you to make the actual decisions on how to use them (and not whether or not to use them) at the time of preparation.

Looking at Widen Spell, I'm inclined to agree that the decision is made at preparation time.

"You can alter a spell" seems to be something done at preparation time.

I can see the alternative argument: If a spell has multiple versions, you choose which version to use when you cast it. You don’t have to prepare (or learn, in the case of a bard or sorcerer) a specific version of the spell.

It comes down to a ruling as to whether Sculpted Burning Hands is one spell with five versions, or five spells.

To me, the similarity to the Widen Spell language suggests that the "either" clause comes into effect at the same time as "You can alter a spell", which for a wizard is at preparation time.

But I can see the argument that it's more analogous to Fire Shield or Protection from Energy, for example, where the version decision is made at casting time.

Regarding Burning Hands, and KD's house rule - if I sculpt Burning Hands into a 40 foot cone, it's not that great. The flames still die 15 feet from me - Sculpt Spell changes the spell's area, but has no effect on the range.

"If any portion of the spell’s area would extend beyond this range, that area is wasted."

(For the same reason, Widen Spell is awful for most emanations that radiate from the caster. Widened Antimagic Field, for example, has an area of 20' radius emanation, but a range of only 10 feet...)

Of course, Sculpt Spell still works just fine to increase the area of, say, Sound Burst significantly, so KD's house rule is still necessary if he's concerned about the 'cheap Widen' effect.

-Hyp.

 

[Sledge]

I will say that you choose the shape on casting because of the way metamagic is normally noted by just stating it is there. Elemental Substitution [Acid] is one feat by itself. Sculpt Spell is one feat. You prep a spell as Fireball (Sculpt). Done, easy. There are other spells with different forms chosen at casting. You are paying a level for this privelege.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

First off, I view Sculpt Spell as a little broken as is.

In my game, you cannot cast it on an area spell that has a lesser area then what Sculpt Spell grants. In other words, you cannot use it as a cheap way to Widen Spell a spell.

Secondly, the feat does not state that you can change the shape on the fly. Making "on the fly" changes is beyond the scope of what a +1 metamagic feat should do. That would be like putting Silent Spell and Still Spell and Eschew Materials into one +1 feat and then choosing the component you want to drop at the time of casting.

Finally, I do not like the "4 cubes" option because it does not state how you can arrange the cubes (e.g. whether they have to touch on a side, a corner, or not at all, etc.). Plus, depending on arrangement, that can make an area effect spell nearly individual target level of targeting which virtually no other area effect spell has.


I also think that the "metamagic range" counter argument is not very strong. Most spells allow for a range "up to x" and Enlarge spell increase the maximum range. That does not change the "up to x" portion of a range spell. The range variability is in the spell before applying the metamagic feat. That's an apples and oranges type of argument.

I'm more inclined to say assuming its choose at cast time its one of the few metamagic feats that doesn't suck on a massive scale. Using widen as an exmaple its got to be the dumbest most poorly balanced feat in existence the designers of this feat should be taken behind a shed and beaten with sticks of cartoon like proporitons. +3 levels for a increase in area of effect size, at most widen should be a +1 level feat at more than that it sucks beyond all comprehension as the vast majority of metamagic feats do. Oh zippy let me spend a feat so I can modify a spell to make it worse than other spells of its modified level, heppy days.

As for this feat I say its modifed at cast not just for balance purposes but also because if it was intended ot be at prep for wiz/cleric/druids I think they would of been a bit more explicit about it. If your going to limit a feat say so, say in the feat the type of modified area of effect is chosen when the spell is preped for prep style casters.

 

[Mavrik]

I know it would be great to be able to modify your spells on the fly with different areas as necessary with just a +1 level kick

But

I think thats a little good... I cant see anything wrong with a lets take fireball as a cone in the morning... or glitterdust in a line.

It not about how sucky other feats are its about balance for a +1 increase compared to other feats.

Now... if you want a sudden sculpt spell or an on the fly sculpt spell feat with say a +2 or +3 kick then thats a different argument. But as a +1 kick its too flexible compared to other +1 feats

Mav

 

[werk]

sorry, one more post

I'm more inclined to say assuming its choose at cast time its one of the few metamagic feats that doesn't suck on a massive scale.

Could it be, El Guapo, that the other metamagic feats do not "suck on a massive scale" and using sculpt spell on the fly makes it useable, but rather, that the metamagic feats are OK, but using sculpt spell on the fly makes it overpowered?

If one thing is different from the others, maybe you should look at 'fixing' that one thing, rather than all the others.

 

[Liquidsabre]

Could it be, El Guapo, that the other metamagic feats do not "suck on a massive scale" and using sculpt spell on the fly makes it useable, but rather, that the metamagic feats are OK, but using sculpt spell on the fly makes it overpowered?

If one thing is different from the others, maybe you should look at 'fixing' that one thing, rather than all the others.

No Shard has got it right. The metamagic feats *do* suck using the core rules. Not only are the feats already balanced for the power they give to a spell by the spell level adjustment, but a caster then must select the feat in order to use it? Our game group switched to UA's Spontaneous Metamagic variant almost two years ago and haven't looked back. But back to the topic at hand...

With Sculpt Spell a preparation caster sets the new area of effect when the spell is modified and prepared, not spontaneously. That would be too good for the spell level adjustment of this metamagic feat.

 

[Mistwell]

I know it would be great to be able to modify your spells on the fly with different areas as necessary with just a +1 level kick

But

I think thats a little good... I cant see anything wrong with a lets take fireball as a cone in the morning... or glitterdust in a line.

It not about how sucky other feats are its about balance for a +1 increase compared to other feats.

Now... if you want a sudden sculpt spell or an on the fly sculpt spell feat with say a +2 or +3 kick then thats a different argument. But as a +1 kick its too flexible compared to other +1 feats

Mav

Except there is no doubt at all that you CAN choose on casting for a sorceror. All you are saying is the sorceror with this feat is broken, whiel the wizard is not...