[Sealed in Blood-V.2] OOC Thread

[Serpenteye]

You do realise that I wasn't being entirely serious about comparing the Lyseeri to a Paragon Cydian Overdeity, don't you Kalanyr?
Nevertheless, she'll still have unlimited access to many useful low (and not so low)-level spells and abilities, whereas my character will quickly run out of spells. She'll still be able to effortlessly decimate any army. She still has access to higher spell-levels than my character, and higher base stats, and a massive amount of bonus feats, and some very powerful SU abilities, both regeneration and fast healing. On top of all that she gets 15 equivalent class-levels of spellcasting classes, that will stack with any additional class-levels. Granted, she doesn't get their HDs or skill-ranks but her regeneration makes her practically unkillable anyway. Your character isn't a 26th level characater any more than a Cydian would be, I'm sorry but if you don't realise that you're obviously blinded by powergaming greed. I'm also sorry for attacking you like this, you're a great guy (as far as I know) but we're not playing an IR now and your character is a very big fish in a very small bowl.
Speaking of powergaming; Sollir is it ok if I re-revise the Paragon template to make it comparable with the Lyseri? I'd like to shift the emphasis of the template towards spellcasting.

 

[Kalanyr]

Ehh I figured that you weren't being entirely serious about the overgod part. And my character is still considerably weaker than a mere average Cydian, continuing to compare her as if they were equivalent is both inaccurate and unfair. Heck last time I looked at my notes an adult Lyseeri was inferior to a Cydian and Liriel is based on a wyrmling.

And I'd like to point out that 3 x 5 levels of spellcasting is NOT equal to 15 levels of spellcasting in a single class (See the Mystic Theurge as an example of this Wizard 10/Cleric 10 != Wizard 20 in power). There's also a specific note that Lyseeri with levels in said classes (Druid/Psion/Sorceror) cannot exceed their HD in effective level, I left it out of Liriels write up because she will never take levels in those classes. There are several other similar bits and pieces left out based on scaling, for example the regeneration and fast healing are both based on HD, as is the PR/SR which I'm likely to drop somewhat anyway (probably to 19+HD, for a total of 27). And her indestructable regeneration is bypassed by cold iron which isn't exactly uncommon (indeed with the changes I suggested on the previous page her Regeneration 8 and Fast Healing 4 in total would amount to 12 hp a round and considering that fully equipped she will have 216 hp (192 unequipped), more than 100 less than the god emperor, I am unsure that this is unreasonable.). Her indestructable Damage Reduction can be bypassed by a +1 axiomatic cold iron longsword (cost 20 315 gp), your damage reduction can be bypassed by a +6 club (cost 720 300 gp) I believe thats 699 985 gold pieces in your favour, incidentally the same weapon also reduces her healing to 4 hp a round, 6 less than yours.

Higher Spell-Levels ? Her highest true spells would be 4th level. Her spell-like abilities are based off her considerably lower Charisma (and are in general not unlimited in the case of spells above 3rd level). And her caster level is much lower than yours in all cases. (By 10 for the wizard and spell-likes, by 12 for the others, which means if your spells are 50/50 to work vs SR, hers are guaranteed to fail.) The true spells also do considerably less damage over a smaller area due to lower caster level and lower spell-level access.

And also unlike you a banishment, dictum, dismisal or holy word can send her packing for 24 hours. She's also susceptible to Planar Binding, Greater Planar Binding, being Gated and she's susceptible to the Planar Turning/Rebuking ability by a cleric with a 23rd or higher effective turning level and the Planar Turning Feat (not unreasonable for a 21st level cleric) (and instant death or eternal service with no save from such a cleric with the Greater Turning power or one with an effective turning level of 46).

A brief glance at an infernal (a CR 26 epic monsters) indicates that she's not gonna be taking it on in 1 on 1 combat with any chance whatsoever of winning, which means she's at the very least well below ECL 34 (4 ECL 34 characters should not be at all threatened by an infernal) or possibly that the ELH is somewhat flawed in places, take your pick.

And now that I've said that I'm perfectly happy to conceed you may have a point and wait and see what Sollir says. I really don't care, I wanted a chance to play a Lyseeri and I got one, if it doesn't work *shrug* so be it, at least I have the race write up finished if I ever pick up the Aftermath game.

Edited: Length of paragraphs, removed some snarkiness.

 

[Sollir Furryfoot]

Let's be friendly everyone, after all, we don't need to compare the Lyseeri to the future God Emperor for they're no longer in the same game per se, and definately do not compare anyone to a Cydrian, which has a very long time to go before even its idea has reached its conception.

Serpenteye, I'm afraid the revised Paragon is a no go, because it is as much of a template for me to use at it is for you-you may still switch your characters ECL and such. Kalanyr, I have the confidence in you for you to make any changes you deem appropriate to balance your character with the rest, and I'll proofread after your final changes, but everything so far looks alright. Tweaking ECLs at these levels isn't very easy one bit.

And just a few words of wisdom: don't expect to be fighting opponents that level 13 characters would find standard So you can decimate an army, that's absolutely fine at this ECL, assuming it's a standard army

 

[Serpenteye]

True, as long as you, Kalanyr and the other fellow players are content with their relative power-level it's all perfectly fine. Perhaps Cold Iron Axiomatic Longswords are as common as candy in your setting, I've never seen one in a game but what do I know?
I'll be nice from now on, I promise .

 

[Kalanyr]

Err I was being generous with the cost of such a weapon if you really want to be snarky: +1 surestriking cold iron dagger (Cost 10,302 gp) and if you really want to focus on the sheer specificness to the character (which I'm sure you do since you're oh so subtle remarks indicates you're astounded by it) there's also a +1 surestriking metalline morphing (weapon of choice) (at a mere 52,300 + (cost of non-masterwork weapon of choice) gp its an absolute steal), which will overcome ANY non-epic damage reduction (incidentally still completely incapable of overcoming your DR), making it a fine choice of weapon for any high-level character.

Considering the relative cost of any of these weapons compared to the cost of a +6 club, I'm pretty sure that they ARE more common (I doubt the pre-requisite 25th level spellcasters for +6 weapons grow on trees for a start).

 

[Serpenteye]

Err I was being generous with the cost of such a weapon if you really want to be snarky: +1 surestriking cold iron dagger (Cost 10,302 gp) and if you really want to focus on the sheer specificness to the character (which I'm sure you do since you're oh so subtle remarks indicates you're astounded by it) there's also a +1 surestriking metalline morphing (weapon of choice) (at a mere 52,300 + (cost of non-masterwork weapon of choice) gp its an absolute steal), which will overcome ANY non-epic damage reduction (incidentally still completely incapable of overcoming your DR), making it a fine choice of weapon for any high-level character.

Considering the relative cost of any of these weapons compared to the cost of a +6 club, I'm pretty sure that they ARE more common (I doubt the pre-requisite 25th level spellcasters for +6 weapons grow on trees for a start).

Nearly every creature in the Epic Level Handbook can penetrate Epic DR, but that's not the main point. A DR of 10 or 15 is inconsequential at our levels anyway. The point is that a creature that has both regeneration and DR usually only suffers normal damage from attacks that penetrate the DR and even if the Lyseeri suffers normal damage from Cold Iron weapons Cold iron is not that common. In nine times out of ten (and that's being extremely generous) your character will regenerate any damage inflicted upon it. A CR 30 Atropal cannot kill your character. A CR 57 Hecatoncheires cannot kill your character. A CR 26 Infernal cannot kill your character. A level 90 fighter cannot kill your character unless he's extremely lucky (even if he could overcome her regeneration she could still use one of her innumerable modes of movement to get away). Nearly none (and that's being extremely generous too) of the creatures in the EHB can kill your character, who is immune to nearly every source of damage. Granted, there are ways to kill it but you must admit that they are very limited.

How can you possibly justify getting 24 bonus feats from the template? How can you justify the great number of Spell-like and psionic abilities (most of which are defensive or indirect and not hindered by SR)? The Su abilities (SR doesn't apply to them)? The immunities against (nearly) everything? The spellcasting-levels from three unrelated classes? Unearthly Grace? Superior Movement? Perfect Senses? Etc, etc, etc... How can you possibly justify taking a part in revising the Paragon template when your own character is this overpowered? The sheer amount of bonuses and abilities is greater than any five creatures in the Monster Manual.

But, whatever. As long as you are all happy...

 

[Kalanyr]

One would expect it to be greater than any 5 creatures in the MM, the Lyseeri were originally created by taking the abilities of the creatures under my control at the end of the 3rd IR and turning them into one creature, in general terms this means many many abilities but none of them compare to the monstrously powerful abilities possessed by your Cydians (who in their original form were literally completely undestoyable) or Sollir's Tri-Dominatrix.

And are you really telling me that these abominations with standard monster wealth for their challenge rating can't spare the gold for a non-magical cold iron weapon (the most expensive of which I think is a thinblade costing 200 gp) with which to coupe de gras a fallen foe ? (if they are wise they will be carrying at least the weapons necessary to easily maim any celestial, a cold iron weapon and a silver one)

And besides that the regeneration is easily adjustable to lawful (though I would prefer not to since standing in an Anti-magic field equivalent or dead magic zone makes you unkillable under ANY circumstances which do not involve a creature with the Lawful subtype, a situation which I did take into account and avoided ,cold iron was chosen of the options simply because it was the most appropriate thematically in my view, I wasn't even thinking about monsters) which is bypassed by about half the abominations. Fire and Acid as negators are also obviously unacceptable.

Oh and given your endless subtle and far from subtle barbs perhaps you would like to suggest a reasonable LA ? I doubt it since there is already very little chance for Liriel to affect any reasonable opponent, and elevating it the point where her defensive abilities are trivial results in her being roughly equivalent to a commoner tag-along (having no meaningful defensive or offensive ability is not balance).

I will finish this character I will see what Sollir has to say and then if necessary I will simpy build a 26th level cleric (or dropout) since our party seems to have a rogue, a mage and a fighter already.

The Paragon LA was also reduced (to compensate for the other reductions) and guess who it was that insisted on keeping the high and ODD ability score modifiers because it seemed you wanted them so much ?

And to be frank for the rest of it, I have to justify absolutely nothing to you, I have no moral or social responsibility to account to you for any of my thoughts, words or actions (unless they affect you and since you are no longer in this party they quiet simply do not). I have chosen to spend more than 3 hours ,which I could have spent far more productively and enjoyably doing nearly anything possible, attempting to justify things to you, to no real effect apart from finally getting your regeneration complaint out at the very end there, which I will now think about and attempt to deal with, and I now choose to spend no more time attempting to discourse with someone who won't even put his REAL point forward to begin with and thinks being falsely courteous and tagging every post with "as long as you all are happy" (or variants) and/or smilies makes things ever so much better.

 

[Serpenteye]

You keep accusing me of trying to be subtle, as if that's the greatest insult you can come up with. Why would I try to be subtle when you obviously don't understand what I'm writing even when I'm being blunt?
You are right about one thing. This discussion is completely pointless and wasting any more time on it would be foolish. I'm done with this. I will state again that I have no problems with you as a person and I hope we can interact again under more courteous forms. (I am aware of the hypochricy of that statement in light of my above insult, but I thought the line was too good to pass up.)
No hard feelings, eh?

 

[Kalanyr]

I find people who don't say what they mean annoying, so yes trying to hide your purpose under fine words does annoy me, I would have preferred you listed your actual points in the first post you made about this, it would have been far more constructive than your over-exaggerated comparison and wasted far less of both of our time, and it would have provided me with 3 hours with which to work on actually dealing with your complaints.

That said considering how unlikely it is we will be again interacting in a situation where our different styles clash quiet this much, I look forward to interacting with you again in different situations, no hard feelings here.

 

[Serpenteye]

I was going to apologize for my recent absence, I've been having some problems with my computer, but I'm relieved to see that I haven't missed anything. Thus, I suppose I'll just announce my return.