Sean K Reynolds on working at Paizo (and other companies)

[Jd Smith1]

Oh, you've broken unions? What exactly do you mean by that?

I've helped to attempt to form a couple unions, and I've been employed in union-breaking services, over the course of my career. Not an uncommon situation. Union-breaking is perfectly legal in the USA. Dozens of firms specialize in such services.

I'm pretty sure unions have been in a steep decline in the USA due to the political system in the USA being incredibly hostile to them, along with major components of culture, that have resulted in situations where workers are pretty heavily abused and companies are let ran amock. This hasn't really happened in other countries, even those along similiar economic lines, so it doesn't seem like union control is weak in 'economic conditions'.

You're wrong. The global economy has made union breaking on the industrial level extremely easy, and the loss of those jobs has made the labor pool large enough that non-industrial business has been affected. IT all boils down to the availability of labor.

Also, are you seriously suggesting Paizo can just move? They're, as you said, a small company - not a public one with investors - ran by their owners. Those owners, likely, would have to move alongside or change their own lives to move. That's already quite inhert.

Absolutely. The owners are in fact investors; it's their money operating the company. Certainly they could move, there are many places with a significantly lower CoB, and its not as if they would have to move a factory. Its office work.

Again, where are they going to find these non-union staff who are willing to work for an abusive place, that are delibertly running away from a union trying to actually fix the place for the workers, exactly? Ones who can work at the same level, ones who can keep their system working? How are they going to get their contractors to accept this, who make up the bulk of writing? Those people are already very willing to move on from companies - and they talk to each other.

There are countless people in the USA hoping to break into RPG writing. In the USA, unions are a small element of the workforce, and the vast majority have never had anything to do with them.

Again, look at Amazon, and similar, warehousing systems: truly awful working conditions that have been well-publicized, and which have successfully broken union-forming efforts. Yet they remain at full employee counts. The need to pay rent triumphs over all.

I seriously don't get your point about investors. Paizo is a small private company akin to Valve; they're not like public investors who care mostly about returns.

The owners are investors in every sense of the word. Economics 101.

I'm not projecting 'old union thinking' that didn't do naughty word to destroy the union structure in the USA.

Actually, you are.

My thinking is based on, perhaps, "maybe companies should stop being ***holes, actually give good conditions to their workers, and be democracies - which will increase returns and make the place a lot more productive. And maybe join the 21st century, where workers talk and communicate with each other and point out the shite that happens across the place."

Companies exist for one reason: to generate a profit which is then paid out to the shareholders/investors. Again, economics 101. Your thinking is, as I've noted, the old union labor-centric way of thinking in which companies are evaluated from a workers PoV.

A perfect example is the growing push to bring automation into the fast food, warehousing, and retail grocery industries. Companies are moving to reduce their employee populations.

Companies need to learn they are not our masters. And if they want to learn the hard way - great.

Very outdated thinking. Economic systems are built on hard numbers: if there are fewer jobs than workers, the employers call the shots. If there are more jobs open than there are workers, unions rule.

Which brings us back to the specific topic at hand: as already noted by others in this thread, there are countless people in the USA dreaming of being an RPG writer. So Paiazo has the upper hand. Until that fact changes, nothing else will matter in the long run.

 

[ReshiIRE]

I've helped to attempt to form a couple unions, and I've been employed in union-breaking services, over the course of my career. Not an uncommon situation. Union-breaking is perfectly legal in the USA. Dozens of firms specialize in such services.

Not sure why you need to clarify it being perfectly legal. I'm familiar with US concepts of 'right to work'. Not sure what you're implying there.

How does your work in union busting make you feel? Why did you do it? Did you go from forming unions to breaking unions, or vice versa?

You're wrong. The global economy has made union breaking on the industrial level extremely easy, and the loss of those jobs has made the labor pool large enough that non-industrial business has been affected. IT all boils down to the availability of labor.

Then why do unions still exist, particularly in Europe? Why do new unions keep being formed - in particular, in software? Unions don't seem to really be broken I've noticed over here. It sounds more like an issue of politics and law, not economics; that unions are being broken for ideological reasons.

Absolutely. The owners are in fact investors; it's their money operating the company. Certainly they could move, there are many places with a significantly lower CoB, and its not as if they would have to move a factory. Its office work.

Well, we'll see if they do that and how that works out for Paizo. Something tells me it won't be good.

There are countless people in the USA hoping to break into RPG writing. In the USA, unions are a small element of the workforce, and the vast majority have never had anything to do with them.

Again, look at Amazon, and similar, warehousing systems: truly awful working conditions that have been well-publicized, and which have successfully broken union-forming efforts. Yet they remain at full employee counts. The need to pay rent triumphs over all.

Okay, so unions are a small element of the workforce. I'm not sure why it has anything to do with this conversation.

There may be countless people in the US hoping to break into RPG writing. Who says they will accept any conditions they can? Who says they won't want union protection? Who says they can even be employed in the first place? Who says they'll make it their main job? If what you're saying is true, why hasn't Paizo just removed all their unionised workers and gotten rid of all their contractors? Why does it appear that the union is working, considering they got voluntary working?

Sure, the need to pay rent does make people's decisions. That's... not a good thing. The fact Amazon has succeeded is pretty awful; and so much of that comes from political choices that have given workers no choice. From decisions made by people who don't give a damn about workers or the people in those awful conditions. Executed by those involved in union busting.

Considering your union busting work... have you been involved in similar cases?

Perhaps if the US had proper social benefits systems and stronger labour laws - including ones that don't facilitate the crippling of unions - then companies like Amazon would clear up their mess.

Actually, you are.

Okay. Interesting that this old thinking has arose in someone not from the States and well, in their twenties, no? Seems still mighty relevant to me, no matter how old it is. Especially when your thinking is also old... don't see what new relevations you're revealing.

Companies exist for one reason: to generate a profit which is then paid out to the shareholders/investors. Again, economics 101. Your thinking is, as I've noted, the old union labor-centric way of thinking in which companies are evaluated from a workers PoV.

A perfect example is the growing push to bring automation into the fast food, warehousing, and retail grocery industries. Companies are moving to reduce their employee populations.

It's clearly not that old if it's a common way of thinking. And yeah, of course I'm evaluating from a workers PoV - I am a worker! I don't care why companies exist - I don't want myself or others abused and used! Do you not see the shite companies put people through? And how that doesn't have to happen, based on examples we can see from around the world, like Nordic countries? Or hell, even my country of Ireland, which, while flawed, doesn't have nearly the same amount of problems?

Companies and similiar structures haven't always and don't need to exist just to generate a profit, all be damned. Alternative structures exist that don't result in the systemic abuse of employees.

Sure, automation may do that. It may not always succeed - it's not a pancea. And there are potential problems that come as a result of that. We'll see how that all goes.

Very outdated thinking. Economic systems are built on hard numbers: if there are fewer jobs than workers, the employers call the shots. If there are more jobs open than there are workers, unions rule.

Which brings us back to the specific topic at hand: as already noted by others in this thread, there are countless people in the USA dreaming of being an RPG writer. So Paiazo has the upper hand. Until that fact changes, nothing else will matter in the long run.

You know it isn't just "that" simple. It's a lot more complicated than that in every industry.

Hell - I'm a software engineer. I work in an industry supposedly where apparently there are more jobs overall than workers in certain sectors. But we don't seem to be ruling or controlling these companies - and many of those jobs go unfilled because they are awful for a wide variety of reasons. We also, typically, don't have unions - mainly for ideological reasons. How do you explain that upon the simple axis you've laid out?

It's not a simple 'lump of labour'; especially in a creative industry, and a small one at that. Then the simple fact that you can dream about an RPG worker, but if jobs don't actually provide the conditions to work well, they will go unfulfilled, and people will leave the industry or move elsewhere, shows that this situation won't be resolved by the company just fobbing everyone off.

To be honest... how much do you know of the paritculars of this situation? Why the union has arised? How well supported it is by many in the Pathfinder community? How the economics of Paizo work out? Why are you so certain that anything your saying actually makes sense in this conversation, in such a niche industry?

One last thing: I think at this stage with all the issues Paizo is facing with transphobia that have result out of this whole thing, that any trans RPG writers in the community would probably want to, well, union up (along with any cis and fellow LGBTQIA allies) to gurantee they have someone with their back, as it has become clear from reading between the lines on the Paizo forms that it has been the regular rank and file workers that have been dealing with transphobia on the forums and other issues, potentially in the workplace, not management. What alternative structure do workers have to deal with those issues? And do you not think that if Paizo bust their union, and continue their same path, that a lot of LGBTQIA workers (who, bluntly, tend to be a significant part of many creative companies) are going to avoid them (and maybe go work for Wizards, who certainly have major problems with this as well, but are big enough that those problems might be avoidable, or dealt in a way that doesn't distrupt the comapny in the same ways as having problematic owners in a small company does)?

I mean, I'm not gonna lie; we all have our biases, obviously, but I'm not sure we can bridge anything between us if you are involved in union busting; it seems like you're approaching from a direction I just can't understand. Like, hell of a thing to just throw out there.

 

[ReshiIRE]

What I like about this blog is that Sean makes it clear that Paizo is by no means the norm in the industry but is instead the outlier.

While it is great Sean has found a place that is great to work with, there have been other incidents showing a great deal of the industry isn't great to work with. Though, hopefully with more awareness and pefople like Sean, Crystal and others out there, that these issues can be dealt with.

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

Which brings us back to the specific topic at hand: as already noted by others in this thread, there are countless people in the USA dreaming of being an RPG writer. So Paiazo has the upper hand. Until that fact changes, nothing else will matter in the long run.

Which, in turns, make me wonder why the sector is attractive, despite conditions that are certainly not all as bad as Paizo's but not incredibly great either. In a context of high unemployment rate, I can see the many employees lining up because there might compete for jobs, but in a full employment context, the compensation must be elsewhere. Perceived "recognition" value of having one's name on a published product? Specific, higher than average unemployment among creative artists whose skills are in less demand in other branches?

 

[Jd Smith1]

Not sure why you need to clarify it being perfectly legal. I'm familiar with US concepts of 'right to work'. Not sure what you're implying there.

You don't seem to have a very good grasp of the conditions in the USA, so I clearified.

How does your work in union busting make you feel? Why did you do it? Did you go from forming unions to breaking unions, or vice versa?

How did I feel? It was a job. $65 an hour plus expenses. Why did I do it? For money, which in the USA can be exchanged for goods &services. I was part of a couple efforts to form unions and then years later, was paid to assist in anti-union work.

Then why do unions still exist, particularly in Europe? Why do new unions keep being formed - in particular, in software? Unions don't seem to really be broken I've noticed over here. It sounds more like an issue of politics and law, not economics; that unions are being broken for ideological reasons.

Don't know; I'm not a European.

Well, we'll see if they do that and how that works out for Paizo. Something tells me it won't be good.

Something is telling you falsehoods.

Okay, so unions are a small element of the workforce. I'm not sure why it has anything to do with this conversation.

You are posting wild assumptions about the US workforce which clearly have no basis in fact. I'm just trying to help you understand.

There may be countless people in the US hoping to break into RPG writing. Who says they will accept any conditions they can? Who says they won't want union protection? Who says they can even be employed in the first place? Who says they'll make it their main job? If what you're saying is true, why hasn't Paizo just removed all their unionised workers and gotten rid of all their contractors? Why does it appear that the union is working, considering they got voluntary working?

Again, you don't seem to grasp the circumstances existing in the USA as opposed to wherever you live.

Sure, the need to pay rent does make people's decisions. That's... not a good thing. The fact Amazon has succeeded is pretty awful; and so much of that comes from political choices that have given workers no choice. From decisions made by people who don't give a damn about workers or the people in those awful conditions. Executed by those involved in union busting.

Politics has nothing to do with it. Until you grasp these basics, you really aren't making much sense.

Considering your union busting work... have you been involved in similar cases?

Sure. Its not a complex business.

Perhaps if the US had proper social benefits systems and stronger labour laws - including ones that don't facilitate the crippling of unions - then companies like Amazon would clear up their mess.

Perhaps if the USA wasn't a free nation, things would indeed be different. But we are, and we've made our choices. You have a lot to learn about different cultures.

Okay. Interesting that this old thinking has arose in someone not from the States and well, in their twenties, no? Seems still mighty relevant to me, no matter how old it is. Especially when your thinking is also old... don't see what new relevations you're revealing.

It seems relevant because you don't understand the culture and systems involved.

It's clearly not that old if it's a common way of thinking. And yeah, of course I'm evaluating from a workers PoV - I am a worker! I don't care why companies exist - I don't want myself or others abused and used! Do you not see the shite companies put people through? And how that doesn't have to happen, based on examples we can see from around the world, like Nordic countries? Or hell, even my country of Ireland, which, while flawed, doesn't have nearly the same amount of problems

What problems, really? You've got an openly disgruntled employing stating his opinion about a former employer. Hardly a scathing indictment of a economy serving 300 million people.

You may not care why companies exist, but without the investment of capitol, there will be no company and no workers. Whether small countries with different cultures, climates, and geo-economic concerns do things differently is hardly a basis of comparison.

Reshire
Companies and similiar structures haven't always and don't need to exist just to generate a profit, all be damned. Alternative structures exist that don't result in the systemic abuse of employees.

Ah, in the USA, yes, they do in fact NEED to generate a profit. Again, economics 101.

Sure, automation may do that. It may not always succeed - it's not a pancea. And there are potential problems that come as a result of that. We'll see how that all goes.

A little late to say that. Automation has had unrivaled success in countless industries here.

You know it isn't just "that" simple. It's a lot more complicated than that in every industry.

It is actually that simple here. Again, you're trying to judge a different culture without knowledge.

Hell - I'm a software engineer. I work in an industry supposedly where apparently there are more jobs overall than workers in certain sectors. But we don't seem to be ruling or controlling these companies - and many of those jobs go unfilled because they are awful for a wide variety of reasons. We also, typically, don't have unions - mainly for ideological reasons. How do you explain that upon the simple axis you've laid out?

I don't claim to be familar with the Irish economy. Just as it is obvious you don't understand the USA.

It's not a simple 'lump of labour'; especially in a creative industry, and a small one at that. Then the simple fact that you can dream about an RPG worker, but if jobs don't actually provide the conditions to work well, they will go unfulfilled, and people will leave the industry or move elsewhere, shows that this situation won't be resolved by the company just fobbing everyone off.

Perhaps in a small economy such as Ireland, but in the USA? You can keep the jobs filled for years; again, Amazon warehousing being a single example among hundreds.

To be honest... how much do you know of the paritculars of this situation? Why the union has arised? How well supported it is by many in the Pathfinder community? How the economics of Paizo work out? Why are you so certain that anything your saying actually makes sense in this conversation, in such a niche industry?

Pazio's bottom line is public record. I've been a gamer for decades, and so I am much more aware of what US gamers (as another thread here pointed out), who are the majority, are likely to do; particularly how they would react to a surge in book prices forced by higher wages. To build o that, there are numerous threads here in which the question of what people would pay for RPG products have been explored.

I mean, I'm not gonna lie; we all have our biases, obviously, but I'm not sure we can bridge anything between us if you are involved in union busting; it seems like you're approaching from a direction I just can't understand. Like, hell of a thing to just throw out there.

Why would I care about bridging anything between us? This is a casual discussion between strangers. Again, and still: you don't understand much about the USA, be it culture or economy. You are mixing false impressions with wishful thinking.

 

[Jd Smith1]

Which, in turns, make me wonder why the sector is attractive, despite conditions that are certainly not all as bad as Paizo's but not incredibly great either. In a context of high unemployment rate, I can see the many employees lining up because there might compete for jobs, but in a full employment context, the compensation must be elsewhere. Perceived "recognition" value of having one's name on a published product? Specific, higher than average unemployment among creative artists whose skills are in less demand in other branches?

That's a good point. Like you, I don't see much value in such a position, given the wage level involved.

I can't help but see a parallel with acting, art, and music: they also have vast pools of talented people struggling for very few positions.

 

[Parmandur]

While it is great Sean has found a place that is great to work with, there have been other incidents showing a great deal of the industry isn't great to work with. Though, hopefully with more awareness and pefople like Sean, Crystal and others out there, that these issues can be dealt with.

Sure, the point isn't that the rest of the industry is paradise, but the special toxicity of Paizo we are finding out about now are not normal in the RPG industry.

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

You don't seem to have a very good grasp of the conditions in the USA, so I clearified.

I think it was useful for you to mention it was legal in your place of employment. When I read it first I thought "mmm, we got a confession!" then remembered you were in the US and it would be legal behaviour there. So clarifying was certainly helpful.

Politics has nothing to do with it. Until you grasp these basics, you really aren't making much sense.

Maybe I can explain the "political" thing: in several European countries, labor agreements are negociated by unions but apply to a whole sector of activity. So if say, Amazon, is against unions, they will still have to comply with the "warehousing sector labor laws". The political aspect is in making agreements enforced irrespective of the workers being personally member of a union. So, if, say, the RPG worker's union negociated with, say, Hasbro a "no room sharing rule" it would apply to Paizo as well by a political decision to extend it. As you said, very different ways to deal with labor relations, resulting from countries being free to implement solutions working for their culture.

 

[Parmandur]

I think it was useful for you to mention it was legal in your place of employment. When I read it first I thought "mmm, we got a confession!" then remembered you were in the US and it would be legal behaviour there. So clarifying was certainly helpful.



Maybe I can explain the "political" thing: in several European countries, labor agreements are negociated by unions but apply to a whole sector of activity. So if say, Amazon, is against unions, they will still have to comply with the "warehousing sector labor laws". The political aspect is in making agreements enforced irrespective of the workers being personally member of a union. So, if, say, the RPG worker's union negociated with, say, Hasbro a "no room sharing rule" it would apply to Paizo as well by a political decision to extend it. As you said, very different ways to deal with labor relations, resulting from countries being free to implement solutions working for their culture.

We wouldn't want to be Commies like checks notes France or Sweden...........

 

[Morrus]

Without wanting to repeat myself in every one of these threads, this is not a thread about US labour laws, politics, or unions in general, and if it turns into one, it will be closed. There are other sites on the web where you can have those discussions. Stick to the topic please.