Search and taking 20: the problem

[Pielorinho]

Also what skill would you use in the case of my wife's uncle who can identify the design of a plastic mold without ever seeing it, just looking at end result?

Craft: plasticmaking, most likely . Because he probably couldn't indentify the design of a computer chipmaking machine by looking at the chip -- rather, his skill is related to a specific craft with which he is familiar.

Daniel

 

[Plane Sailing]

Also what skill would you use in the case of my wife's uncle who can identify the design of a plastic mold without ever seeing it, just looking at end result?

Knowledge(plastic moulds) or perhaps Craft(plastic moulds)

 

[Pielorinho]

The other explanation I would like to get from you is the difference between spot (WIS) and search (INT), from your post, it seems you counfound the two. I would like to understand how with your explanation you justify the INT modifier to search instead of WIS, maybe you changed that too.

D'oh -- confound IS a correct word to use here! Learn something new every day.

Spot is used passively in most cases; search is used actively. In any case, I wouldn't use spot in this instance, and have never suggested i would.

Daniel

 

[Nail]

It's in no way an unsee-able perfect trap. You just can't see it without seeing it. All traps are like that.....

Right. And yet a rogue can still use his search skill to find it.

"Conflating," not "confounding," is the word you're looking for,

Err, I think I'm using the term "confounding" correctly (to fail to distinguish) .....although "conflating" (to combine into one whole) would be similar enough to work.

As I've pointed out, other folks' interpretation of the holes lead to such absurd results as being able to find a letter in someone's backpack without opening the backpack up.

Aww, come on, P. That's a pretty contrived example of a trap.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Come to think of it, by the rules, only a rogue (or magic such as Find Traps) can find a trap if the Search DC is 21 or higher. It doesn't matter if you're a 20th level elven Ranger with 23 ranks in Search and an Intelligence of 24. Without that one rogue level, you simply cannot detect all magic traps and well-hidden mundane traps.

As such, I'm quite prepared to let the rogue's Trapfinding ability to be somewhat mystical.

From the same initial premise I took a different solution and ruled that *anyone* can find a trap with any DC that they can make. If a fighter puts all his skill points cross-class into search, I'd let him search for traps. Why have a situation that *requires* a rogue in a party, that *nobody* else will do?

Perhaps the Track ability is a good indicator, and make Trapfinding a feat which is available to all characters (as well as being automatic for 1st Rogues). This then puts it on exactly the same footing as tracking for rangers (except that it is a far more necessary ability, of course).

Cheers

 

[DarkMaster]

The problem is this: if you set the DC too high, then he can't find it if he does a full-cavity search on me.

The closest DC in the rules to finding notes hidden in a sword-scabbard is probably 15, for "ransack a chest" -- if you actually look inside, the notes are obvious.

Your interpretation of the rules doesn't, as near as I can tell, allow for separate DCs for searching for things by rooting around through them, and searching for things by looking at them. So either the guard easily finds the plans by looking at me, or the guard can't find the plans if he cuts my sword-scabbard apart and looks inside.

Or am I missing where you assign different DCs based on different search techniques?

Daniel

Well I rule that yes, if they specifically say that the open the coffer then I don't bother rolling the dice unless there is a secret compartement or high time constraint. but if they just say I search this 5x5 area which happend to contain a box a table, a scabbard and a wardrobe then we roll the dice or take 20 for the area and they find whatever is below their DC, that simplify a lot the "I look at the table, then I open the box, bla bla bla". In the early days that is what I was doing but it took hours (real time)to clean up a simple well furnished room, player can find it fun the first time but the tenth time everybody is bored to death (even the DM).

What you could do is have the same DC but add penalty because you can fully use all means available to do this search, the DC 15 on the scabbard takes into consideration that you will freely manipulate the scabbard, not being able to do so should bring a large penalty. But the DC in the trap takes in consideration that you are not touching anything making it bigger. Take notes that DC above 20 are usually activity that are pretty hard to achieve.

 

[Pielorinho]

Nail, my apology for the "confound/conflate" error on my part. The letter example is an example of what search checks can turn into if you don't require futzing around in order to make some search checks -- it's not a trap, but it is a search check. A rogue can find my example trap with a search check -- he just has to futz around with the panel in order to find it, and his futzing around risks setting the trap off. I wouldn't consider gaining visual access to the inside of the cabinet to be part of the search check; rather, it's an action necessary before making that search check. No dice rolls are involved in opening the cabinet door.

Daniel

 

[Pielorinho]

Well I rule that yes, if they specifically say that the open the coffer then I don't bother rolling the dice unless there is a secret compartement or high time constraint. but if they just say I search this 5x5 area which happend to contain a box a table, a scabbard and a wardrobe then we roll the dice or take 20 for the area and they find whatever is below their DC, that simplify a lot the "I look at the table, then I open the box, bla bla bla".

So getting back to the example -- if a guard just says he looks at the potential spy and takes 20 on his search check, you're saying you'd give him what DC to find the notes? Or would it be impossible? Whereas if he cut open the scabbard, you'd give him what DC to find the notes? Or would it be automatic?

I'm confused.
Daniel

 

[DarkMaster]

So getting back to the example -- if a guard just says he looks at the potential spy and takes 20 on his search check, you're saying you'd give him what DC to find the notes? Or would it be impossible? Whereas if he cut open the scabbard, you'd give him what DC to find the notes? Or would it be automatic?

I'm confused.
Daniel

To me the DC to find a note in a scabbard without touching it would probably be in the 30s-40s, making it impossible for the average guard or person to find simply by observing you even if they do it for 2minutes or more.A few guard can spend more than two roll observing you actually. To take 20 in this situation would requires him to forget everything else and to focus on your person for 2 minutes. but if he cuts it and manipulates it maybe DC15 if it is well hidden, rolling one search because he is busy and you can fool him.

 

[Pielorinho]

So, Darkmaster, would you be willing to assign the same dual-DC to my cabinet-trap above -- a DC of 30-40 to find the trap if you just look at it without touching it, but a DC of 15 or less if you manipulate it?

Daniel