Search, Spot, Listen

[scranford]

The Conan RPG has an interesting approach to skills that I have adapted to all my d20 games. Only skill points from the class are limited to class skills. Any skill points from an intelligence bonus can be spent freely on any skill that is not trained only. (And I might allow that if there is a good reason). This lets a fighter or a cleric whom would like more skill points put a higher score in intelligence and use those bonus skill points as wanted (ie listen, spot, or search).

 

[Hawken]

I sometimes ask for the Spot roll only for the 1 to 3 PCs in the front of the party, but this seems a bit forcing to me. Any suggestions?

Roll maybe a Wisdom check or something just to see if they are paying attention (maybe the rogue is daydreaming of what to do with all that treasure, or the dwarf and elf in the group are arguing over body counts, etc.). You set the DC, you roll and those that make it, you tell them to roll a D20...(tangent)nothing spoils an encounter or pace of the game faster than saying, "ok, make a spot/listen check". If they make it, fine, but if they fail, they know they missed something and are likely to waste time scouring the area for whatever they missed(/tangent)...and you have their modifiers ready and let them know whatever you need them to know--if their checks fail, write down the check (or anything) so they'll think you're using that roll for later. Suspense/pace is preserved and those paying attention get to make the checks.

Keep track of what they are doing too. If they are arguing, discussing, studying, etc., then increase the DC of the check to see if they are paying attention. If they are paying attention (to you), maybe lower the DC or give them a bonus to the check.

 

[cmanos]

personally I think they should be lumped together into one skill...Perception

 

[KarinsDad]

personally I think they should be lumped together into one skill...Perception

For the first year or two of 3E, I would say "Give me a Perception roll" due to us playing other games before that which had Perception skills.

 

[Dracandross]

Conan D20 system had one great idea. It allows INT bonus points to be used as 'class' points, ie when using them skill counts as class skill for those points only.

Makes easier to make different chars, but of course in DD version some preqs for prestige classes might be messed. Makes INT also more usable for nonmages (even without being some skillmonkey). Id allow same for human racial +1 pt too.

-Dracandross

 

[Pickaxe]

Me and my gaming group sometimes wonder why are these not class skills for all classes

What is your guys thoughts?

I think the origin of this may have to do with the ties to old editions, at least for Spot and Listen. These skills basically replace the old "surprised on a...." mechanic of 1e. IIRC, the default was that anyone was surpised on a 1 or 2 on a d6, and you could improve this chance through a variety ways, such as your race, your familiar, the Alertness NWP, or your class. Hence, in 3e, some races have bonuses to Spot and/or Listen, familiars give you alertness, and you can take the Alertness feat (or Skill Focus).

In addition, those classes that were harder to surprise in 1e get Spot and/or Listen as a class skill. I know this follows for the ranger, and I believe it was true for the monk (and maybe the barbarian) as well. I don't think 1e thieves actually were harder to surprise, but presumably the designers saw the rogue's role as either similar to that of a ranger in terms of scouting or else as the "master of skills" in general. Listen was probably given to bards since they deal closely with sound. The addition of Spot and Listen to the druid class skill list came in 3.5, and that seems to be the most "artificial" to me. Spot and Listen, for me, belong as class skills to those classes most likely to serve in some capacity as a scout or "point man," and the druid does not come to my mind for that role normally.

--Axe

 

[Dross]

Going off topic

(tangent)nothing spoils an encounter or pace of the game faster than saying, "ok, make a spot/listen check". If they make it, fine, but if they fail, they know they missed something and are likely to waste time scouring the area for whatever they missed(/tangent)

That needs to be discouraged as much as possible (violently against the PCs if possible ). If they failed they should act as if they hadn't rolled at all.

Back to KarinsDad Q: No problem with the number of rolls, but my group's DMs (all DM once in a while) generally do a guesstimated modifier based on distance, noted level of care (I make sure that I am checking behind us as often as possible) and whatever feels appropriate. I also have a habit of making everyone roll, but only listen to results from one or two players as appropriate (keeps them meta-game guessing about what is actually going on which I am want to do on occassion)

And back to the OP's Q. I am happy enough with these skills not being class skills for all. As several others have said since these are commonly opposed rolls, it dilutes the power of those other skills (including those of the PC's, which is often forgotten in these cases). You could house rule that checks that don't require an opposed roll get some sort of bonus, but I personally wouldn't.

 

[Li Shenron]

Me and my gaming group sometimes wonder why are these not class skills for all classes

What is your guys thoughts?

Listen & Spot: I think it is utterly fair that only a few classes have them (actually I think more classes were given them in 3.5, and I disagree with that).

My reasons:

You do not need to max out [or just generally, you do not need very high ranks] in Listen and Spot. Other skills may require to steadily increase the rank through the levels, but not Listen and Spot. Generally speaking, a small or medium rank is useful even at high levels.
There are some exceptionally stealthy monsters with huge bonuses in Move Silently/Hide; it should require an exceptional character (a Ranger for example) not to be surprised by such a creature. Having many PCs with ultra-high Listen/Spot can effectively negates the exceptional stealth too often.
The other use for L&S is to notice sound/visual details, but the DC doesn't need to increase with the level.

Search: normally hidden things could also have quite stable DCs, so that anyone may search for them. Traps and hidden doors should be fodder for certain classes (Rogue first). A party without a Rogue should just not be as good with traps as one with a Rogue (just like a party without a Wizard cannot complain it has no fireballs...). It is ok to give the option for a non-Rogue to be good at traps, but only a character basis, for instance by taking specific feats or otherwise by using a class variant: but giving Search for anyone because the party doesn't have a Rogue is bad.

 

[Li Shenron]

Actually, it is more like saying:

These are adventurers. By default, adventurers should get better at Spot, Listen, and Sense Motive, just like they get better BAB and Saving Throws. The more you have to rely on something, the better you should get at it.

Each adventuring class should improve at different rates, but they should all improve.

The game is designed to encourage that many classes NOT improve in these areas AT ALL as opposed to ensuring that all classes improve to some degree. To me, that is a game design flaw.

The game is designed around making you use the abilities which define your class. The game is also designed to give you thousands of options to expand your class and get other abilities. But the games is also about CHOICES and PRICES to pay.

Those with a class skill can choose to improve at any rate between 0 and 3+1/level.
Those with a cross class skill can choose to improve at any rate between 0 and 1.5+1/2levels.
There's lots of freedom compared to BAB and ST. A wizard might never use its BAB at mid-high levels, but it cannot choose to have it even worse for some compensation. At least with skills it's all up to you: you can max out a few skills or spread the bonus in more, depending and how you intend to better use those skills.

I have spent so many times skill points in a cross class skill: Listen, Spot, Tumble, Hide, Move Silently, Knowledge and Speak Language being the most common. Taking a cross class skill and USE IT is more useful than maxing out a skill and go too far beyond how much you really need.

 

[epicycloid]

I used to have a house rule that PCs would gain a rank in Spot, Listen, and Sense Motive automatically every 3 levels (i.e. a rank of Spot at levels 1, 4, etc., a rank of Listen at levels 2, 5, etc.).

It was not so much whether it was a class or cross classed skill or not, it just made no sense to me at all that high level Adventurers would be blind, deaf, and stupid after surviving hundreds of combat and NPC interactive encounters.

Since it was not a cross class becoming a class skill issue, those classes that are really good at this type of thing benefited nearly as much as those who were not (i.e. it cost them less to max out these skills since they got some ranks for free, hence, they could boost other skills).

Instead of giving automatic ranks. How about reduce the cost of Spot, Listen and Sense Motive to 1 pt. for everyone but, it still counts as a cross-class skill. (meaning that the Ftr could only have 1/2 level ranks while the thief have level+3)

The Ftr only gets 2-3 points per level anyway, having him pay 2pts for rank, seems pretty steep for something that he should be able to do. Ie.. guard and/or keep watch.