Searching for "New School" elements

Bullgrit

Adventurer
After seeing statement after statement referencing supposed differences between modern-era D&D adventures and classic-era D&D adventures, I felt the urge to actually look into a published adventure for evidence of this “New School” v. “Old School” divide. So I looked at some of the published adventures that I’ve purchased in recent years, and thought I should see if I can find examples of “New Schoolness.” I pulled out one adventure, (that I actually used in my D&D3 game), to look at in detail.

Note: I’m only looking at one adventure right now, as I just don’t have time to examine multiple examples at this moment. This adventure may be indicative of its era, or it may not.

Note: I’ve recently been chided for disclosing spoilers about an adventure module that was over 30 years old, so I’ll refrain from giving spoiler details from this adventure.


“New School” elements I found in this adventure:

On the first page, there’s about 7 column inches [3” wide columns] of introductory back story going back over a dozen centuries. At the back of the booklet, the a full page is devoted to the back story, going in more depth and detail.

Although the adventure locale exists basically because of the old, time-honored reason of “a wizard created it,” the premise for the party to explore the location is not open dungeon exploration. The party is sent, hired, to quest for multiple McGuffins. (At least it’s not a rod broken into seven parts :-)

Explanation of the levels the adventure is designed for: the text gives direct warnings that lower level PCs are likely to be killed too easily; higher level PCs won’t find a proper challenge in the adventure. Warning about a good party balance. The encounters in the adventure are all designed to be appropriate challenges for the PCs. (There are no overwhelming encounters that should be avoided. In fact, few encounters *can* be avoided if the quest is to be completed – see below.)

And that brings us to the map of the adventure, itself. The “dungeon,” (if we want to call it that), is pretty linear in layout – it’s not a sprawling environment conducive for wandering and exploration. You can’t reach an encounter area without going through the preceding encounter, in linear order. I don’t like using the term “railroading” when discussing dungeon design, because I see “railroading” as the DM orchestrating outcomes regardless of PC action, but I know many people hold linear dungeon design as “railroading,” so to be fair I have to at least acknowledge if that is a complaint about the “New School” style that it exists in this dungeon.

Right from almost the first room, the “dungeon” branches into three paths. Each path consists of about half a dozen set-piece encounters ending in a boss-monster room with the McGuffin as the reward. Each branch has another, short, branch that deadends with one or two rooms. This is actually a nice touch to hide the linearness from the PCs, (who may not be mapping), but when you look at the DM’s map, you can almost see the near mathematical pattern: 3 linear paths, each with 6 set encounters plus 1 side encounter.

There are several environmental challenges, including environmental obstacles in some combat encounters. Other than a very slight chance of a “wandering” encounter, (with enemies not from the numbered rooms ), all challenges and encounters are completely isolated in their set placement. There is no defense movement of the enemies for reacting to the PC invasion. Every encounter is a distinct challenge, appropriate to the PCs’ level.

The text explains why the named boss opponents are in the adventure and guarding the McGuffin. Heck, even some of the non-boss enemies get names and explanations/motives: there’s a romantic couple, (a fighter and a sorceress), and a fallen knight, (known by at least one of the PCs). There’s also mention of how the non-humanoid monsters get care and food.

The final set-piece encounter for the whole adventure, (scheduled for only after the party has found the McGuffins), is dependent on how hard or easy the PCs have found the linear challenges. The text says, directly, that the final challenge can be omitted if the party had a hard time, or it can be scaled up if the party had an easy time with the other challenges.

I didn’t bother noting treasure, (monetary or magical), in this adventure because I’ve explored that aspect of “New School” v. “Old School” elsewhere on ENWorld and on my own web site.

And, to be fair, there were several “Old School” aspects in this adventure, but I’m not pointing them out this time, because I was only interested in seeing if “New School” elements actually existed in it. From how I understand the distinction, I think the above details are considered “New School.” Is this what everyone else understands, or have I misidentified anything?

Bullgrit
 
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Heh. From the description that could be the original White Plume Mountain.

I'm not sure what you're describing as "New School", I'd describe as "New School".
 

The final set-piece encounter for the whole adventure, (scheduled for only after the party has found the McGuffins), is dependent on how hard or easy the PCs have found the linear challenges. The text says, directly, that the final challenge can be omitted if the party had a hard time, or it can be scaled up if the party had an easy time with the other challenges.
Wow! Schrodinger's monsters. I think that all D&D modules, even the classics, are more 'new school' than the advice in the 3e DMG. Modules, as far as I'm aware, always have party size and level indicators and all the encounters in the module are scaled accordingly, whereas the 3.5e DMG advises that 5% of all encounters should be 'Overpowering: The PCs should run. If they don't they will almost certainly lose.' - pgs 49-50

Note: I’ve recently been chided for disclosing spoilers about an adventure module that was over 30 years old, so I’ll refrain from giving spoiler details from this adventure.
You could put [spoilers!] or somesuch in the thread title, as was done for the other Tomb of Horrors thread.
 

Heh. From the description that could be the original White Plume Mountain.

I'm not sure what you're describing as "New School", I'd describe as "New School".

This. I am over 90% certain that he is talking about White Plume Mountain.

Indeed, I was almost certain when I read the OP that I was reading yet another of these sort of "trick" posts/threads intended to prove that, despite changes in design and philosophy, and despite the statements of the various designers about expected play, nothing has actually changed!

Word games do not invalidate experience of change.

IMHO, at least! YMMV.


RC
 

"New School" elements tend to avoid strategic play, include OOC authorship, focus on internal conflicts, and highlight personality expression. Most D&D games do not fill the bill. EDIT: I don't think any books do regardless of publication date.

It sounds like your adventure is Mike Mearls'
"The Three Faces of Evil"
But Raven Crowking could be right too. I don't recall all of the adventure he mentioned. Both are similar in design.
 
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This. I am over 90% certain that he is talking about White Plume Mountain.

I wouldn't put a number on it, but what he says is highly similar to White Plume Mountain, yes.

Word games do not invalidate experience of change.

Word games do sometimes have their uses, however. Done properly, word games can help reveal the subjectivity of many of our positions, judgements, and experiences. If we keep our minds open, such an exercise can sometimes help us seek out the actual origins of the changes in our experiences - they may not lie where we suppose they do.
 

Keep in mind WPM was originally a tournament module, and as such, pretty much has to be linear and a bit of a railroad, as it generally has to be finished in a short time frame. While it's a wonderful module, it's not the best of choices for the premise of this thread. I'd be interested in a comparison using a non tournament module from the early days. I know there are some railroads in there too (Castle Amber anyone?)
 
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I wouldn't put a number on it, but what he says is highly similar to White Plume Mountain, yes.

I would, and did.

Word games do sometimes have their uses, however. Done properly, word games can help reveal the subjectivity of many of our positions, judgements, and experiences. If we keep our minds open, such an exercise can sometimes help us seek out the actual origins of the changes in our experiences - they may not lie where we suppose they do.

Meh.

YMMV, but methinks Bullgrit protesteth too much.

And methinks he is not alone in that, either. If you think his "See how tricky I can be in describing this classic era module, in forlorn hopes that those who like older games will not recognize it and leap in to trash it" is somehow "done properly"....or is even somehow surprising....then, well YM definitely does V.


RC
 

An old school style dm isn't afraid to destroy your gear, kill your character, remove your limbs, give you cursed items, and all without checking with the player first. An old school style dm uses your magic item wish list for scratch paper and then throws it away. An old school style dm is a referee and adjudicator. A new school style dm helps make sure that everyone is having a good time even if it means that he pulls his punches and limits his dirty tricks. A new school style dm doesn't use many random encounters, because they throw the game off track. A new school style dm tries to ensure that the party is relatively balanced so nobody is useless, makes sure they have appropriate gear for their level and doesn't use encounters 19 levels above the party.
I remembered that quote by @theJester from another thread and thought it might be valuable here. Because it suggests that the division between 'old school' and 'new school' is less about the scenario text and more about the attitudes of the people at the table.

Maybe it's not as clear cut as that. Maybe scenarios with overt metaplot (like, say, Dragonlance) could be labelled 'new school'. But even then, it's gonna be shades of grey, depending on the spirit of how it was run and played by any given group.

In short: I dunno.
 

I remembered that quote by @theJester from another thread and thought it might be valuable here. Because it suggests that the division between 'old school' and 'new school' is less about the scenario text and more about the attitudes of the people at the table.

Maybe it's not as clear cut as that. Maybe scenarios with overt metaplot (like, say, Dragonlance) could be labelled 'new school'. But even then, it's gonna be shades of grey, depending on the spirit of how it was run and played by any given group.

In short: I dunno.

I think you're on to something here- the fact is, you can run even the most old-skool module in a new school way (and vice versa) if you're just willing to discard certain bits of it- often as little as the advice to the dm.

For instance, a new school dm could run Tomb of Horrors in a new school way; it would involve giving the pcs lots of checks to notice trouble, ignoring all the "count to 10" stuff in favor of giving the pcs plenty of time to consider their options, etc.

Likewise, an old school dm can run, say, Pyramid of Shadows in an old-skool way. It's hard to avoid how linear the map is, but you can spice it up by having new threats arrive behind the pcs, by letting one encounter reinforce another, and by accepting the possibility that the pcs will be trapped inside forever instead of automatically giving them an escape route.

It isn't about the adventure per se, so much as the intersection of the adventure and the running of it.
 

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