Season of Sexism #2: The Fake Geek Girl; plus Origins Award Winners, and Red Aegis' designer dream t

Majoru Oakheart · Jun 19, 2013

Umbran said:
Yah, but as any geek should know* - the plural of anecdote is not data.

Of course, I wasn't trying to be scientific. Just stating what I've observed, because in this situation what is observable is really the point. People ask where the "fake geek girl" meme comes from. I say because the average geek looks around and sees a number of women that aren't as deep into the culture as the guys.

I think the real issue is that at the beginning, geek culture kind of grew up mostly in tech circles in the 70s, 80s, and early 90s. Where you needed to be able to program, work in a tech field, or have an obsession with fiddling with modem strings just to access the culture(BBSes, very early internet). That was a field that was almost entirely male.

Over the years, the geek culture has become more and more open because it's been easier to access. The definition of geek got broader and broader. Which is why geek culture has so many subgroups now. It's now in sub sub sub groups at this point. When "People who like My Little Pony" are considered to be a subset of geekdom...it's been split pretty far.

I think some people see some newer geeks who have just discovered their geekdom and showed up to a convention with their geek qualification being "I saw the batman movie and avengers"...it frustrates some people. And before people accuse me, it doesn't frustrate me. I'm happy to see new geeks of any kind join our community.

Umbran said:
That's nice. I don't play minis games, I haven't touched M:tG in a decade or more, I don't regularly watch anime, play board games or video games.
You want to tell me that I'm not a geek, then? Do I not pass the geek test?

I'm not attempting to say that someone needs to pass some kind of test to be a geek. However, those are the types of activities that make you a geek. If you are really into(or have EVER been into if you have no time now or just grew out of it) at least 2 or 3 of the items in the list...you are solidly in geek territory. The more of them you are into, the more geeky you are. Though I've forgotten to put a couple key ones up there like science.

Being a geek is about a mindset where those things are the kind of things you'd probably like. I currently don't really watch anime. But I've enjoyed a number of them in the past when I had friends who were way more obsessed with anime and we'd watch together. I own a warhammer 40k army, but I last played years ago because the friends who really wanted to play moved away. I wouldn't have time for all of it if I wanted to. Though, those are amongst things I like.

Umbran said:
If I pass a geek test, so does a woman with similar interests and investment to mine. Your geeks that have no spare time for anything other than geekdom do not stand as the base definition of the beast - they are instead the extreme of the beast. When the extreme is used as the standard definition you get a skewed view of the universe.

I think, for old school geeks, being a geek isn't something you join or you dip your feet into because you like one aspect of it. It was a lifestyle that came natural to them and you couldn't separate from them if you wanted to. It isn't something they make time for. It IS their life. It was easy to qualify someone as a geek in 1990. If you knew what the internet was and had ever logged in, you were probably a geek.

One didn't use the internet at that point without dedication. It required knowing a lot of stuff and likely having access because you were a computer science student at a university. You socialized almost entirely with other geeks because no one else knew what you were talking about.

Geek used to be something that affected your personal, social, and professional life.

It's gotten to the point where I go to GenCon and attempt to talk to D&D players and it feels like we're speaking an entirely different language. I find that as long as someone is geeky, I can find enough common ground to be friends with them. Over a number of years, I've met people from ENWorld and attempted to have conversations with them. I went to a meetup and felt like I didn't really fit in. Like I was TOO geeky for that crowd.

Majoru Oakheart · Jun 19, 2013

Umbran said:
I am also a dumphone user. If I want a computer, I have a computer that is a bazillion times better at computer tasks than my phone would be - and if making my phone a computer compromises my ability to make phone calls (which it does), then I say no thanks!

Wait...you make phone calls? I think I make maybe one of those a week...if that.

Alan Shutko · Jun 19, 2013

Majoru Oakheart said:
It's gotten to the point where I go to GenCon and attempt to talk to D&D players and it feels like we're speaking an entirely different language.

I don't think that's geekness. I think that's "similarity to me". Geekness ranges all over the map. I program, have an undying love for Babylon 5, paint minis, think Mentzer D&D is the one true edition, soldered a sidelight into my GBA, and first learned assembler on MC68k. I have very little in common with people who love anime, have been LARPing since 1993, who play Warhammer, who play anything resembling an MMORPG.

Guess what, they're all geeks. There have always been hardware geeks, software geeks (of varying persuasions), music geeks, you-name-it-geeks. There are some overlaps, but there's so much diversity and variety that I have to say

you to any attempts to limit or otherwise exclude people.

Mike Eagling · Jun 19, 2013

Majoru Oakheart said:
When "People who like My Little Pony" are considered to be a subset of geekdom...it's been split pretty far.

This, I think, is the heart of the problem. I don't have an interest in My Little Pony. My sister played with these toys when we were children and they represented everything that I, as a "geek" child, stood opposed to. They weren't anything like my role-playing games. In a similar way, Pokemon (referred to upthread) was something that children played with when I was a teenager: "Pokemon has nothing to do with my (geek) culture!" sounds exactly like something I would have said back then.

But part of my "geek identity" stems from still being interested in the things I was interested in when I was younger. Just because I became an adult didn't mean I had to put away childish things. Quite the contrary, it meant I could afford to buy more of them.

So, it doesn't surprise me that people younger than me have a similar attitude, that the things they were into as kids are now part of the wider culture. The culture has grown. It has become wider. Yes, it has become increasingly mainstream. I see that as a good thing. I wish it had been this mainstream when I was younger. For a start I'd have had a bigger pool of people with whom to enjoy my interests.

Majoru Oakheart said:
It's gotten to the point where I go to GenCon and attempt to talk to D&D players and it feels like we're speaking an entirely different language. I find that as long as someone is geeky, I can find enough common ground to be friends with them. Over a number of years, I've met people from ENWorld and attempted to have conversations with them. I went to a meetup and felt like I didn't really fit in. Like I was TOO geeky for that crowd.

Well, I'm sorry to hear that. I've lost count of the number of conversations I've had with "real people" where I've felt very much out of place. It isn't much fun. But I've realised that some of these people are actually quite interesting in their own right--and unless I want to spend my life in a cave it's beholden upon me to understand their world too. Unless we're talking about the bat cave. If I get to spend my life in the bat cave everyone else can go screw themselves.

Umbran · Jun 19, 2013

Majoru Oakheart said:
Of course, I wasn't trying to be scientific. Just stating what I've observed, because in this situation what is observable is really the point. People ask where the "fake geek girl" meme comes from. I say because the average geek looks around and sees a number of women that aren't as deep into the culture as the guys.

Yes, and I'm saying that it is BS to be drawing lines based on perception of how "deep into the culture" a person is.

Over the years, the geek culture has become more and more open because it's been easier to access. The definition of geek got broader and broader. Which is why geek culture has so many subgroups now. It's now in sub sub sub groups at this point. When "People who like My Little Pony" are considered to be a subset of geekdom...it's been split pretty far.

Exactly my point. There's a whole lot of things that are geeky. So, failing to meet any one person's definition is pretty meaningless. "The culture" is a very large thing now, and not keeping up with that fact is not a valid excuse to treat people badly.

Geek used to be something that affected your personal, social, and professional life.

And? Times change. Use that big honkin' geek brain to keep up, I say!

billd91 · Jun 19, 2013

Majoru Oakheart said:
Over the years, the geek culture has become more and more open because it's been easier to access. The definition of geek got broader and broader. Which is why geek culture has so many subgroups now. It's now in sub sub sub groups at this point. When "People who like My Little Pony" are considered to be a subset of geekdom...it's been split pretty far.

This is, as far as I can see, inevitable. There's simply more things to geek out about and there will always be additions of more things to geek out about. It'll simply be harder and harder for any one geek to cover the whole set of geeky things and we'll all just be involved in various subsets, some of which may overlap and some of which may not. And what these self-appointed gatekeepers of geekdom need to get through their heads is that there is no tenable gatekeeping.

Majoru Oakheart said:
It's gotten to the point where I go to GenCon and attempt to talk to D&D players and it feels like we're speaking an entirely different language. I find that as long as someone is geeky, I can find enough common ground to be friends with them. Over a number of years, I've met people from ENWorld and attempted to have conversations with them. I went to a meetup and felt like I didn't really fit in. Like I was TOO geeky for that crowd.

It's like that on these boards too. And the problem, if problem it is, is only getting more noticeable. There are some people who might as well be from alien planets the way they talk about D&D compared to my experiences.

billd91 · Jun 19, 2013

Dragoslav said:
I wasn't aware that the "fake geek girl" label was being thrown around so frequently as to have become a problem until just now. My first exposure to the phrase was in the context of people scoffing at the use of "generic sexy woman + video game paraphenalia/references" in order to pander to or appeal to nerds.

I have to say that when I first heard of this phenomenon, attacking the "fake geek girl", I thought it was a reference to booth babes - models brought in to pander to the undersexed male demographic. But it was shortly thereafter I heard of it being directed at cosplayers and I cottoned on to its scope.

Frankly, I don't care how deep someone is into geek culture. Even if they show up at a convention to primarily attract attention as a provocative cosplayer, as some clearly seem to, I don't care. They're there and mingling amid the geeks, wearing something geeky, and participating in the event and experience, helping to make it a success with their admission fees and buying concessions from the local vendors. Who gives a flying f

whether they're as geeky as Igor from Dork Tower?

Spryte · Jun 19, 2013

Dragoslav said:
So if a woman wants to be a part of the mainstream, i.e. to not relegate herself to traditionally "woman's" areas and hobbies (cooking, sewing, fashion, etc.), then she has to essentially make her way into a "man's world," since what's mainstream tends to be what men enjoy.

I think this is a key part of the problem. 30 years ago this would have been true, but time change and some have a harder time keeping up than others. As a female back in the 80's you basically had a choice - be part of the mainstream female perception or join the ranks of the geeks. There wasn't a lot of middle ground, at least not publically, and it was difficult to belong to both worlds. Today, however, things have changed. There are boys in cooking classes and learning "women's hobbies" without criticism, and women have proven they are more than capable of serving a great snack they whipped up while they GM their local gaming group. Having skills or interests in the traditional female areas doesn't have to mean that you cannot also have skills in areas considered "geeky", and while people are starting to realize it, it's slow going in some circles.

Mike Eagling · Jun 19, 2013

billd91 said:
It's like that on these boards too. And the problem, if problem it is, is only getting more noticeable. There are some people who might as well be from alien planets the way they talk about D&D compared to my experiences.

I'm assuming in such cases those other people are expressing their own experiences of D&D. Is that not useful, by providing alternative perspectives and thus a different insight on something "known"?

Umbran · Jun 19, 2013

Mike Eagling said:
I'm assuming in such cases those other people are expressing their own experiences of D&D.

It would be good if they were. Often, they are. Sometimes, they are presenting it (willfully or thoughtlessly) as if their own experience was IT, and that other things should be discarded.

Rather like the person trying to label someone as a "fake geek girl" is trying to discard a person.

*sigh*

Season of Sexism #2: The Fake Geek Girl; plus Origins Award Winners, and Red Aegis' designer dream t

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