Secondary attacks

[Oompa]

I'm not talking about minor actions.. Dropping an item is an free action and free action you can take as much as you want, even in other combatants turns, drawing an weapon with quick draw is part of an attack, an secondary attack is an attack....

and about the climbing example:

If i have 6 speed, and i hit an 10 foot wall after moving 4 squares, i can climb one square, than use my standard action to move again and climb 1 square and than move 4 squares..

Climbing is part of movement and you move at half your speed..

 

[gizmo33]

For the moment it might be possible to set aside the issue with drawing a weapon because I think you might be able to just consider the case of a fighter holding a weapon in each hand. No drawing necessary.

(I think it's pretty obvious that you can't perform an action (like draw) in mid-action if it's not a free action. As far as Quick Draw goes, *if* a secondary attack could be with a different weapon, then I would think that Quick Draw would let you draw during that action, since it says you can draw as "part of the same action used to attack with the weapon", and since you're attacking with the secondary weapon, then you could Quick Draw it.)

I don't see anything in the rules that says what exactly a secondary attack is. It seems to me more of a mechanic than an actual happening in the game. In the case of drow poison, for instance, the "attack" really isn't another swing, but just what a "saving throw" would have been in prior editions against some secondary effect. Other powers make it seem like you're actually taking another physical swing.

You can infer some things from indirect evidence (ex. they don't say that a secondary attack can be with a different weapon) and the fact that when they let you attack with two different weapons in the same round they call this out.

One could say "no you can't" or "yes you can" but I can do that too since I'm the DM. So that doesn't seem to change where this stands right now. I was wondering if the rules had a clarification on this. I suppose the next step is to put in a question to customer service or try to snag a WotC person here into answering this.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

Well, specific beats general, right? There are powers that specify being using an off-hand weapon for the second attack, or a shield or a fist, etc.. So, since those specifically say you use an off-hand weapon, we can assume that in normal attacks you use the same (main hand) weapon.

As for the thing about quickdrawing in the middle of an attack....no. Quickdraw says

You can draw a weapon (or an object
stored in a belt pouch, bandolier, or similar container,
such as a potion) as part of the same action used to
attack with the weapon

This would mean that you have to do it at the start of the action. Basically, you're spending a standard action to attack the target with a power. As part of that standard action, you can draw a weapon with which to perform the attack. What you're talking about is completely different. You're talking about starting an action, stopping it, performing a separate action (while it may be free, it's still a separate action) and then drawing a new weapon so that you can continue the action you already started previously.

Those are not same thing.

 

[Black Knight Irios]

I think you can change weapons in an attack power that has the melee keyword and offers multiple attacks but does not call out main- and off-hand explicitly:

If you hold two
melee weapons, you can use either one to make a
melee attack.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

That's a little more gray, I'll admit. However, that's also different than the secondary attack issue anyway. You're making separate attacks against multiple opponents while holding two weapons. It's a far cry from dropping a weapon, quickdrawing and equipping another and then using the second one to follow the secondary attack line.

I still would think that you would designate whichever is your main hand weapon and then use that weapon for all of the attacks involved in a multi-target attack, unless the power specifies something else. When wielding two weapons you're supposed to declare which one you're using prior to making the attack, so I would think that this would set the "main hand" weapon to used in the remainder of the extra attacks.

 

[gizmo33]

What you're talking about is completely different. You're talking about starting an action, stopping it, performing a separate action (while it may be free, it's still a separate action) and then drawing a new weapon so that you can continue the action you already started previously.

Those are not same thing.

I'm not sure what you're talking about here exactly. Quick Draw doesn't specify that you draw the weapon at some point in the middle of the power usage or stop anything, nor does it count as a seperate action. Without quick draw, drawing a weapon IS a seperate action, and not free anyway so I think the answer is simple in that case. For the Ranger's Twin strike power, if he had a second weapon in a scabbard, it seems, according to the rule text, that Quick Draw would allow him to draw the second weapon and attack with it as part of Twin Strike.

Thus, if secondary attacks *were* to allow you to use a different weapon, that weapon, by definition, would be a weapon used in the power and thus Quick Draw would be applicable. That doesn't mean that the secondary weapon would have wait to have been drawn until some later point in the action - Quick Draw isn't too specific on when this drawing takes place - only the obvious sense that it must occur before the action is made. For example, consider a power that allows you to slide 1 square and then attack - I don't think Quick Draw really specifies whether the weapon is drawn before or after the slide and I can't think of a situation where that information would matter.

 

[mischa84]

I'm not talking about minor actions.. Dropping an item is an free action and free action you can take as much as you want, even in other combatants turns, drawing an weapon with quick draw is part of an attack, an secondary attack is an attack....

and about the climbing example:

If i have 6 speed, and i hit an 10 foot wall after moving 4 squares, i can climb one square, than use my standard action to move again and climb 1 square and than move 4 squares..

Climbing is part of movement and you move at half your speed..

I agree about that "Part of a move action" PHB 182, sorry about that.

But I'm still not talkin about ATTACKS you can do as much free ACTIONS as you want between other ACTIONS not in the midst of an ACTION. Thanks for Doctor Proctor having the same point.

But I read through the PHB again to find out that you always can attack with your main hand or off hand!!! Like Black Knight Irios, thanks. PHB 270.

But PHB 217 tells us:

Off-Hand: An off-hand weapon is light enough
that you can hold it and attack effectively with it
while holding a weapon in your main hand. You can’t
attack with both weapons in the same turn, unless
you have a power that lets you do so, but you can
attack with either weapon.

If we don't ignore it it also means you can also use only one of your two weapons when spending an action point to use two powers.

Let us come to the point were you get rid of your used weapon to use another: Even with quickdrawing you weapon the used weaponslot only unequips with a free action which as far as I understand can only be taken between other actions and not while one is still in process. Until now I didn't find any clarification on this issue but it will until then be in responsability of the concerned DM to allow or deny actions in process of other actions.

But remember that this will allow Attack while Moving, like going 3 squares forward make a ranged attack and go back to the starting position and that is totally not what I want in my game.

 

[Black Knight Irios]

mischa84 your statement that you can't take a free action in between attacks of a power is wrong.

I have an example for you right out of the PHB:
Assume a ranger using twin strike:
main: flaming weapon; off: any weapon.
His first attack hits (main!!), and he uses the power (daily!) of his weapon, a free action, and continues afterwards with his off hand attack.


So I say depending on how the free action action is worded it can occur nearly at any time in a round/turn even in between attacks of a power.

 

[cmbarona]

A quick reminder: Quick Draw does not make drawing the weapon a free action. Nor does it make drawing the weapon part of an "attack," whatever is meant by that term (I think someone once counted 4-6 different possible definitions of that one word). It makes it part of the attack action, which is normally a standard action.

 

[Black Knight Irios]

A quick reminder: Quick Draw does not make drawing the weapon a free action. Nor does it make drawing the weapon part of an "attack," whatever is meant by that term (I think someone once counted 4-6 different possible definitions of that one word). It makes it part of the attack action, which is normally a standard action.

Emphasis mine.
And what do you think that implies?