Seeking advice using illusions effectively

[Magus Coeruleus]

Here's the problem: how is that believable? What spell or common magic item does that effect duplicate? Put another way: how many other magic-using opponents have been able to spontaneously create 10' x 10' spiked pits?

For an ogre....sure, you might be able to get away with that. But for many opponents, who are steeped in the magic-using world that is D&D....they're going to have some sense of what's possible, and what's not.

A wall, or fog, or a patch of entangling ground....yup, that's possible. A huge spiked chasm, 30 feet wide? ...uhh, what level spell caster is that, again?

I think a reasonable approximation of what an intelligent opponent can believe is what you (the DM) could turn around and use on the players, and fool them into believing it. ...And, just as importantly, what illusion would cause the players to lose actions dealing with the supposed threat or illusory problem.

Precious few of those set-ups, I think.

This is a good point and I agree that considering what players would believe in terms of NPC illusions is useful exercise. That said, if in the game I play in the DM were to describe a spellcaster as tossing sand on the ground and spiked pit appearing, well first I would ask for a spellcraft check to identify the spell which would probably foil the ploy but that's a separate issue that's already been mentioned. Anyway, assuming I couldn't identify the spell, I know I would steer clear of that pit if I could. I guess it depends on the campaign, but I would never assume that just because I can't recall a core spell that let's you create pits with a material component of sand the DM hadn't created a specialized spell or wasn't using some other book he found. For all I know, it's a real spell, new to me, and I don't want to fall in that pit first because I don't want to get hurt in general and second because I want to get that spell from the guy's spellbook!

Again, good to consider what players would consider reasonable, but let's not forget that all need not be certain and known about magic, at least in some campaigns, and also that decisions of what's reasonable should depend at least somewhat on creature's intelligence, wisdow, and knowledge of magic.

 

[Nail]

Again, good to consider what players would consider reasonable, but let's not forget that all need not be certain and known about magic....

True enough.

And really: that "Spellcraft trick" is a real spoiler in the plans on any illusionist...especially the NPC kind.

 

[Orichin]

I created an got passed a metamagic feat while playing an illusionist/rogue that may help

Misleading Spell
Prerequisite: spell focus in school to be chosen
Benefit: Caster may prepare spells of the chosen school using this metamagic feat without increasing the spell's level (though it must be prepared beforehand as a misleading spell for wizards/priests, or takes the increased cast time for sorcerers/bards). In addition to normal casting procedure, caster must make a bluff check DC 10+spell level, or interrupt his casting as if he had failed a concentration check. The DC to any skill check made to discern information about a Misleading Spell via the use of the Spellcraft skill or divination spells like detect magic is increased by 4

 

[Henrix]

I'd say that trying to fool enemy spellcasters with illusions is hard, even if I generally give penalties to spellcraft checks if the would be identifier isn't concentrating solely on the caster. Spellcasters tend to have good will saves. (But being invisible helps!)

Use your illusions in advance. As others have said, use them to control the terrain. Make illusions of objects far away, so that the enemies do not interact with them and thus be allowed will saves.
Remember that a Major Illusion of a dangerous monster (DC 18, if cast by a 18 Int gnome) can probably keep a couple of Brb4 Ogres (Will +2) occupied for a few rounds, but not long against a Clr5 (~Will +6). Just concentrate on the illusion to keep it moving and seem realistic in combat.

Illusions of ghosts are probably good. Most people would not really notice if their weapons just passed right through them, especially if they don't have magic weapons!

Make illusions of your friends! If the barbarian is charging from two directions at once the oppositon may well split!

 

[vulcan_idic]

Sun Tzu said,
"All warfare is based on deception.

Hence, when able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must seem inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near.

Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him.

If he is secure at all points, be prepared for him. If he is in superior strength, evade him.

If your opponent is of choleric temper, seek to irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant.

If he is taking his ease, give him no rest. If his forces are united, separate them.

Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected.

These military devices, leading to victory, must not be divulged beforehand."

 

[Thanee]

Here's a "house rule" I am using, which might be interesting for you:

When using Detect Magic to identify an illusion spell you must first pass the Will save to disbelieve against that spell (as if interacting with the illusion), and only if you succeed your attempt to identify the school of the spell will give you the correct reading. If you fail, you will detect another school, which has been determined by the caster during the casting of the illusion spell.

This could maybe also be done for Spellcraft attempts to identify illusion spells cast during combat. Let them make the save in advance as part of the illusion. Otherwise, it's kinda hard to use Shadow Evocation against opposing spellcasters, for example, since they can substitute an incredibly easy (often automatic) Spellcraft check for their Will save.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Kaji]

Absolutely.


Here's the problem: how is that believable? What spell or common magic item does that effect duplicate? Put another way: how many other magic-using opponents have been able to spontaneously create 10' x 10' spiked pits?

For an ogre....sure, you might be able to get away with that. But for many opponents, who are steeped in the magic-using world that is D&D....they're going to have some sense of what's possible, and what's not.

A wall, or fog, or a patch of entangling ground....yup, that's possible. A huge spiked chasm, 30 feet wide? ...uhh, what level spell caster is that, again?

I think a reasonable approximation of what an intelligent opponent can believe is what you (the DM) could turn around and use on the players, and fool them into believing it. ...And, just as importantly, what illusion would cause the players to lose actions dealing with the supposed threat or illusory problem.

Precious few of those set-ups, I think.

I have to disagree. Although the players have an excellent idea of what is possible, I always rule that if a character does not have any ranks in Spellcraft or Knowledge (arcane), that character does not know jack about what can and can't be done. It's all voodoo black magic to them. Plus, I'm always introducing new spells into my campaign to keep everyone on their toes. I'm pretty sure the Compleat Librum of Gar'Udok DOES have a third level or so spell that creates a spiked trench, and I thought it was a pretty reasonable spell. To the point: I would suggest that many monsters have no idea of what can and can't be done, and the illusionist should leverage that knowledge.

 

[Nail]

Well, I don't mean to press the point too far; you're right that there could be new unknown magic out there.

But: The D&D system has a set of rules for what's possible, what's not, and when the impossible becomes possible. IOW: there are spell levels. Most creatures in the world should know this...and they should also know the general likelihood of magic of different powers.

A spell making a spiked trench is great....but it's unlikely to be a 1st level spell. Many people would find it strange that an otherwise weak magician is able to cast such a spell.

 

[Shallown]

Posted by Nail
Well, I don't mean to press the point too far; you're right that there could be new unknown magic out there.

But: The D&D system has a set of rules for what's possible, what's not, and when the impossible becomes possible. IOW: there are spell levels. Most creatures in the world should know this...and they should also know the general likelihood of magic of different powers.

A spell making a spiked trench is great....but it's unlikely to be a 1st level spell. Many people would find it strange that an otherwise weak magician is able to cast such a spell.



I agree. I was trying to get across the point that adding a little showmanship to the spell may make it more believable. as far as things that create holes. I know you can get a pit from robe of useful items. Perhaps a passwall spell. etc. What I was getting at was play on the enemies expectations.

In D&D it is possible to develop knew spells and such as well but I think the main point is that of shooting for something believable.

I think staying within expectations within the level of magic available is also important. Maybe at first level I might create an area filled with caltrops which is more reasonable. My examples are generic and not really based on casters level though as a gm I would base my believability factor on levels.

I think Illusions are like some enchantment spells in that they rely on more roleplaying than rollplaying. (Not that I want to argue about how much)

I'm not sure what dwellers in D&D campaigns should know about magic I guess that would depend on the campaign. I mean a anyone is welcome to take spellcraft as a skill and learn how magic works.


Later

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

As a DM, I'm trying to get a grip on how to run illusions. It seems to me that far too many people want to run them (even silent image) like Wish but with a will-save. Things like "I cast an illusion of a metal cage with sharp pointy spikes covered with dripping poison appearing around the enemy. He doesn't get a save unless he touches it because he hasn't interacted with it and he's not going to touch it because it looks like poison. Ha ha ha." Alternatively, "the ground starts to shake and a massive gaping pit with lava at the bottom opens up here, here, and here." (Another SILENT IMAGE !?!? spell I've seen tried).

That kind of abuse of illusion spells is what causes me to tend to treat illusions very harshly in game. (I really crack down on Suggestions for similar reasons). A lot of DMs share my caution in this regard.

The kind of illusions that almost always pass muster are the ones that are cast before the victims see them and that look natural. The PCs spot the giant before it spots them and cast an illusion of a snowbank covering them all up. The giant hears some spellcasting and looks and sees a snowbank. He pitches a rock into it just to make sure, fails the will save and walks on. Or the PCs duck behind a wall and cast Silent Image to make it look like a dead end. The pursuing goblins look at it and if they don't know the area, they probably scratch their heads a bit or look for a secret door. If they do know the area, they debate briefly whether it's a real or illusionary magic wall and either go back to get pickaxes or poke it and find out it's an illusion.

WRT spellcrafting illusion spells, I think that is probably most analogous to being told the result is an illusion--immediate save with a +4 bonus. It's not incontravertible proof that the spell is illusionary unless you cast it yourself.