D&D General Seeking Input: A moment of prayer for the Ranger

Very early in 5E14's run, former 5E designer Rodney Thompson published an Unearthed Arcana article for the Ranger that basically just did a full swap-out of Ranger spellcasting for the Battlemaster Combat Superiority system. Thereby creating the "spell-less Ranger" concept.

I rarely if ever heard people on these boards talk about if anyone ever tried those Rangers out or how they worked... but that might very well be the easiest way to get one. Granted... the 5E24 has a number of Ranger abilities now tied to the Hunter's Mark spell (Favored Enemy, Relentless Hunter, Foe Slayer), that you would probably have to edit out and remove since they no longer would apply. But that would be okay I think, because you could exchange them with the Improved Combat Superiority and Ultimate Combat Superiority features from the Battlemaster instead.
 

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to keep spells withing ranger class and keep ranger "rangery" as stealth guerrilla class, one change is nice.

Ranger while casting ranger spells that are not gained from another class ignores spell all components that are not expensive.

and as ranger's damage falls of the cliff by end of tier2, HM does not requires concentration at levels about 7-9. Might reduce duration like other class features that ignore concentration.
 

The problem is that the archetype you are describing is only fun in 5e for levels 1-4.

After that those sorts of wilderness challenges are just too mundane.

In a more grounded sort of game where all characters were more mundane the archetype could work.

As it stands wizards will be casting great spells and paladins unleash holy wrath and protective fields while the proposed ranger is good at hunting beasts and being sneaky against foes without magical senses. Rather lacking.
 

Very early in 5E14's run, former 5E designer Rodney Thompson published an Unearthed Arcana article for the Ranger that basically just did a full swap-out of Ranger spellcasting for the Battlemaster Combat Superiority system. Thereby creating the "spell-less Ranger" concept.
A whole bunch of us created spell-less rangers shortly after 5e came out and there wasn't one ;) I did one myself (since this was right after 5e came out, there might be some continuity issues with the 5e rules)

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Does stripping magic from rangers return them to their roots as skilled trackers and hunters? Creating opportunities for cunning wilderness encounters and emphasizes problem-solving and survival skills over spellcasting. A ranger's true power should lie in their knowledge of the land and their ability to use it to their advantage.
What do you all think?
We are currently working on a quasi-spellcasting ranger following 5E as a base. (Doing the same for Paladin, Bard, and Warlock btw).

Spellcasting is removed as a general feature. To keep modifications minimal, Ranger Archetypes keep their spells and can cast them once per long rest, with the addition of hunter's mark.

Otherwise, the Ranger has no magic or spells. We've revised their other features to make them feel less "magical". I should have the first "complete" draft this week and I'll share it then.

Quick summary: favored enemy damage, advantage on all ability checks related to (or while in) favored terrains, revised Primeval Awareness, Vanish, Hide in Plain Sight, and Foe Slayer (which becomes actually a good capstone feature). We also added a new feature, Many Leagues.
 

I really want to see if the "army scout" idea could work. I have toyed with making a magic-less Ranger and never really arrived at something anywhere as good as what the 5e Barbarian achieves.
Perspective: I'm weird in that I started from 5e and then went towards the OSR, one of the reasons was the "everyone has magic" issue that 5e suffered from.
Side note: Barbarians and Paladins are how i think an alternative fighter work best: mechanically different on alternative axies and I am a bit sad the Ranger doesn't have this feel.

Does stripping magic from rangers return them to their roots as skilled trackers and hunters? Creating opportunities for cunning wilderness encounters and emphasizes problem-solving and survival skills over spellcasting. A ranger's true power should lie in their knowledge of the land and their ability to use it to their advantage.
What do you all think?
If you are looking for a Ranger that doesn't cast spells, there is the Ranger from Level Up:


There is only one Ranger subclass that makes use of magic. The Wildborn Ranger. They're sort of the Ranger equivalent of the Eldritch Knight subclass.
 

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I really want to see if the "army scout" idea could work.... A ranger's true power should lie in their knowledge of the land and their ability to use it to their advantage. What do you all think?
But surely I should not need to do that unless the Ranger niche is so weak that it needs such protection?
I think it needs protection in the same sense that if you have a true “thief” class built around finding and disarming traps, opening locked doors, and climbing walls but then never provide those things in the game, you’re not protecting those abilities.
Specific to niche and protection -- D&D as a game, focuses on specific things at the expense of others. Being able to do certain things is exciting or not based on whether the rest of the game facilitates them.

In a super-low-magic homebrew, I had a character who knew how to knap flint arrowheads, make beeswax waterproofing, weave his own cord and start fires with a bow-drill, and otherwise not just survive but stay a viable combat threat for years in the wild without resupply. In D&D, where even the more travel/survival-focused earlier editions usually amounted to checks to make sure you found the dungeon and travelled there in the least amount of time (minimizing purchased rations used and wandering monster checks made before getting there), those abilities just aren't going to see play (even if, as others have alluded to, there isn't a spell which can do it better).

So, to make a short answer long, yes -- a ranger's niche is weak in this game. Whether you want to protect it is another matter. And, as TiQuinn points out, if you do want a ranger-that-behaves-rangery to be a viable character type, there needs to be events in the game with differential outcomes based on whether there is a ranger there to tackle them.

If you want to do that, crafting a new ranger class to do so is a reasonable first step. However, where you will really need to start is both the skill section and the overall task resolution mechanisms in general.

Specific to the "army scout" idea -- this is a simplification, but IRL army scouts do a specific task well. They make sure they know where an opposing army is, as well as what other hazards and difficulties there are for their own wilderness-hardened (but less mobile) army behind them to move through the wilderness. In practical terms, they make sure that the eventual engagement occurs at the time and place most advantageous to their side, and with the highest information deficit in their favor (and their own side spent a minimal amount of resources getting into that position).

In D&D, for a proposed non-magical ranger, perhaps that translates to this: If the default is the DM saying that a wilderness encounter is happening and drawing out a battle map, party with a ranger gets to select from a set of pre-made maps. Depending on level and roll, they may also get placement of their choosing, deciding the direction their enemy is coming from, and eventually massive stealth bonuses for each character until they reveal themself (letting their opponents rush past and potentially get flanked or surrounded). It's still not going to be as effective as real life, in that being in optimal formation isn't quite as make-or-break in D&D as it is in real life*, high mobility (including flying) and poor zone-of-control means flanking already happens a lot, and the characters that most benefit from remaining hidden until the right time already can do so. *and some things will never translate perfectly in a game where one successful hit doesn't drop or at least render ineffective most opponents.

Even then, this is only going to work when choosing the situation of the engagement is an option. In the common D&D scenario of invading a dungeon full on emplaced opponents, a ranger's abilities are going to be reduced to hopefully not being surprised by their opponents and not giving away their presence at inopportune times*. And that's reasonable, IRL -- much like cavalry, archery, etc., scouts are a unit type which can only be used most effectively in given scenarios. It's just really frustrating in a game where you generally play one character most of time if their applicability is too scenario specific. This is the same reason why 'still mostly effective when equipment-limited' types like monks and swashbucklers have generally been upgraded over the editions**.
*although much like similar cinematic scenarios, that will depend on how well their comrades can successfully perform the 'don't touch anything' task.
**as that quality is recognized as not going to show up enough to make it more than a ribbon quality otherwise


So instead rangers generally get abilities which vaguely approximate (or at least allude to) doing what IRL army scout types would do (and then we argue over how appropriate an approximation they are). Many of the spells are kinda-sorta like choosing the optimal terrain situation, just without the pre-planning. If they weren't specifically coded as spells, most of them individually would be fine with me -- instead of casting entangle, you maneuvered the enemy into an entrapping terrain feature no one had noticed until you invoked the ability. However, I would prefer something like a broad expansion of battlemaster-like maneuvers, or even better a broad expansion or using skills, items and terrain to your advantage (and then make rangers the best at doing so). But that will always run into the issue of making a class highly scenario--dependent.

Overall -- people have been doing good job of recommending other attempts at rangers which do not use spells. Most are, however, either a collection of abilities which 1) are not unlike the spells (just not magic) and 2) only vaguely approximate what IRL rangers do (and thus the eternal debate over applicability); or (like Level-Up) come from a game/version of the game which overall makes non-magical task resolution more interesting. If one of them speaks to you, go for it. I'm mostly just laying out the challenges of the task, not offering a specific solution (or poo-pooing the attempt, I want to make that clear -- I think it's a noble endeavor I love seeing).
 

D&d is a high-magic game. Monsters fly without wings, beings from other planes walk through portals that open when the moon is in the right place and every major city has a temple where people can ask gods for hints.

Which doesnt means it's impossible if you want a no-magic character. A mix of Rogue (scout, swashbuckler, thief) and Fighter (Battlemaster, Champion, Samurai) can give you a blend of skills, knowledge, and martial prowess that can be Legolas or Aragorn.
 

Does stripping magic from rangers return them to their roots as skilled trackers and hunters?
Well, I take issue with the "return them to their roots" description, as D&D rangers have had magic since they were first introduced. So really, what you want is to change them into non-D&D rangers.

Which, as others have pointed out, is already eminently doable with a fighter or rogue, focusing on ranged attacks and scouting skills. The broader problem is that this typically becomes a class that is very environment dependent, and in a campaign that doesn't emphasize wilderness adventures all the time, the non-magical ranger can feel like a bit of a 5th wheel.

I think that's the current problem with the 2024 ranger. They're not a bad class, but they don't really do much that another class can't do as well or better. Ranged blaster? They're fine. So are warlocks, rogues and fighters...and all of them potentially better. Social? Not worth mentioning. Exploration should be their niche, but it's not - I'd rather have a druid, rogue, or monk.
 

The best version of the Ranger that I’ve seen that fits this bill is from a rules hack for Dungeon World called Unlimited Dungeons. In essence, when the party “Undertakes a Perilous Journey”, the Ranger is able to get extra benefits when they succeed on the role. Similarly, they get abilities to “Scout Ahead” of the party that also yields benefits in terms of information or a tactical advantage. Really great stuff that makes the Ranger feel extremely useful when in a wilderness environment.

The issue is that it’s for a much more narrative style game which is very careful to keep the lanes for each class distinct. One of the issues with 5e specifically and D&D in general is there are few abilities around exploration that don’t get one-upped by a wizard, cleric or druid spell. Also if you don’t emphasize wilderness encounters or overland travel, then the non-magical ranger is going to feel pointless.
Yes, this is 100% the problem, but without going down the road of every class being spellcasters, or the opposite extreme of limiting the spells to preserve the ranger's niche. The remaining option is to make wilderness/ travel/ movement a bigger part of play? But the issue I would see there is that the other classes are then feeling like that segment of the game is purely for the Ranger.
I guess we can contrast this with the more "generic" or versatile abilites of the Rogue, which folks have pointed out really shines in all sorts of terrains, situations and seems not to need any niche protection.
 

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