D&D 5E Self sufficiency

[Sacrosanct]

A trapper has nicer-than-average clothing? Clothing made of cotton, or even silk? And a woodsman can easily maintain his chain shirt? Where does he get the metal? The tools?

You've clearly never worn buckskin or furs.

Seriously dude, you obviously have no idea what you're talking about. I've tried giving you example, and even references for you to look up and see for yourself. But you're dead set against facts for some reason. So shine on I guess. Play the game however you want. Just don't be shocked if someone comes to your table who knows what they are talking about and tells you that you're completely wrong.

 

[Calion]

It's actually extremely plausible. Lice typically don't move from animal to human. They are almost always human to human. Out in the woods? I'm not sharing pillows or furniture with other people, so.... And fleas are naturally repelled by cedar. Which I happen to be surrounded by out in the woods. And again, I'm not in close proximity with other things that have fleas, like sleeping with a animals or having swarms of rats and mice crawl over everything I own because they are not only not afraid of people in the city, they depend on those people.

Okay, I think I see the problem. You're comparing outdoor life with a poor life in the city, where you are regularly sleeping with other people, have little or no chance to bathe or wash your clothes (and your clothes would probably disintegrate if you did wash them), and have rats and mice crawling over everything you own. Compared to that situation, you're entirely right.

But that's not what we're comparing to. We're comparing to a private room in a nice inn, with a bathroom down the hall, filled at least weekly with hot water by the servants, plus maid service of some sort in your room, several changes of quality clothing, and good, healthy, varied food to eat. It's not luxury, nor riches, but it is quite comfortable. Yes, there's poop in the streets, but none in your room. Well, except in your chamber pot, which gets emptied (perhaps into that street) daily.

I suppose I can't change that, but I hope you'd at least re-evaluate your position when presented with new information.

Actually what's happened when you presented your outdoors information was usually "yes, right, I'm sure that's true, but that still isn't the same thing as a Comfortable living style as laid out in the PHB." Which certainly seems to be the case.

 

[Calion]

You've clearly never worn buckskin or furs.

If that's "nicer than average," why didn't the nobility wear it? (Well, they did wear furs, of course, as coats and such.)

 

[Calion]

I think you're making some assumptions here based off of exposure to some falsehoods. For one, "comfort" is sort of relative and subjective. I can tell you, I am often MOST comfortable when I'm out in the woods. No traffic, no people, no pollution, no red tape, not of that BS. I'm responsible for my own well being, full stop, and there's a tremendous amount of comfort in that.

Yes, exactly! That's what's confusing you. You're "comfortable" by your own standards in the woods, therefore you assume that that must mean that you are "comfortable" by D&D standards. However, there is an objective standard of wealth that must be met to be "Comfortable" by the PH, and it has nothing to do with subjective comfort. It is thoroughly possible to live in a "Comfortable" situation and be miserable, to hate being cramped in a well-appointed inn room, and to long to be elsewhere. No matter; you're still "comfortable" by D&D standards. It's the word itself that's throwing you off.

I know how to make temporary bedding that is just as comfortable as any bed you have, and that's just on the fly (I live in Oregon, so plenty of Douglas fir, etc). I know how to make shelter and how to make a fire to maximize heat, keeping me warm all night long. Food is never an issue here if you know what to look for, from mushrooms, to tea from dandelion root or pine needles, to fish, to squirrel, to birds, to herbs, etc, etc. I can make a meal that rivals just about anything I make in my home with what I find in the woods. I know what plants keep the bugs away. I know enough about natural medicines to rival anything you'd find in a medieval town. I know how to make glue from the bark of a birch tree or pine sap, and how to carve spoons and dishes, and tan hides, and make lamps with an old can and tree sap, and make a mud oven, and any number of things you might think you can only get from a store.

I quite believe you. And that sounds like, after a few weeks/months of work and getting your shelter built, you could live at a Modest standard of living. Perhaps, after several months, you could have a permanent homestead with hand-carved furniture, candles, several sets of clothing, and a nice roaring fireplace over which you can cook varied and interesting meals, which sounds like it could qualify for Comfortable. But living a Comfortable life in the woods after only a few days or weeks? Just not possible, unless you happen upon some well-appointed abandoned homestead. The housing situation alone prevents that. Unless you luck out and find a perfect, dry, uninhabited, fairly deep cave, you will, at the very least, have a much more unpleasant time during a stormy night than that gentleman in the warm dry inn room.

And I can also feel a whole hell of a lot more safe out in the woods than I could in any room at an inn in a town or city where break ins, muggings, disease, loud neighbors, etc are all at. I know how animals behave and can take measures for that.

And yet the PHB doesn't mention anything about "feelings of safety." What it does mention is legal protection against crime, which the outdoorsman completely lacks. If a couple of brigands comes upon his hut while he is away and steals all his stuff, he has zero recourse, except perhaps to try to hunt them down and kill them himself, even if he knows exactly who did it and can prove it. They can waggle his stuff in front of him, and he can do nothing. Not true of that artisan in the city.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Okay, I think I see the problem. You're comparing outdoor life with a poor life in the city, where you are regularly sleeping with other people, have little or no chance to bathe or wash your clothes (and your clothes would probably disintegrate if you did wash them), and have rats and mice crawling over everything you own. Compared to that situation, you're entirely right.

But that's not what we're comparing to. We're comparing to a private room in a nice inn, with a bathroom down the hall, filled at least weekly with hot water by the servants, plus maid service of some sort in your room, several changes of quality clothing, and good, healthy, varied food to eat. It's not luxury, nor riches, but it is quite comfortable. Yes, there's poop in the streets, but none in your room. Well, except in your chamber pot, which gets emptied (perhaps into that street) daily.



Actually what's happened when you presented your outdoors information was usually "yes, right, I'm sure that's true, but that still isn't the same thing as a Comfortable living style as laid out in the PHB." Which certainly seems to be the case.

And what you're doing is comparing the most wealthy and privileged. On royalty levels. I seriously don't think you know what live was like in the middle ages in the cities, even for the the "upper class". If you open a history book, you will probably be a bit surprised. There were no bathrooms down the halls, and maids who filled your tub with hot water. Not unless you were royalty. I wasn't being snarky when I said you really should read up on London in the Renaissance (let alone in the middle ages). Life was nothing like you're assuming. Even the well to do had to walk through sewer, had massive infestations of lice, rat infestations, disease, etc.

And I don't know why you keep bringing up legal protection like it's a good thing. you don't need it in the woods. It's like saying car insurance is a good thing. Not if you're not around cars at all, then it's a BAD thing to have to pay for it. Yes, I said pay for it, because in the city, you have way more taxes than you do if you're all by yourself.

 

[Calion]

As an aside, 8 weeks is a LONG time in the woods when you have nothing else going on. You should see some of the stuff some of the people on the TV show ALONE have made in much less time than that. One guy tapped because he was living so nice (even made boardgames) and that comfortable existence made him have a lot more time to think about his family that he missed. So he just tapped for that, not that he was having it rough. I can make a really good, almost permanent home, in 8 weeks, along with animal tanning and a buttload of crafting of items like utensils and furniture.

I believe this too. But it seems to me that that's roughly the total amount of time that an adventurer is likely to spend between adventures. So just when you're set up to live at a Modest (not Comfortable) standard of living, it's time to go adventure again.

 

[Calion]

This thread is making Dick Proenneke roll over in his grave. Seriously Calion, before you continue, you should probably look him up. And he was in Alaska (pretty non hospitable to live in the wilds. I know, I lived there for 3 years myself).

Read the post right above yours. You literally don't understand the terms here.

 

[Greenstone.Walker]

Very few primitive tribes would be considered "well off" compared to a medieval artisan, in terms of material wealth.

[Citation Required]

Now look at the descriptions in the PHB and tell me which level of wealth that sounds most like.

Comfortable means "…that you can afford nicer clothing and can easily maintain your equipment." Someone proficient in Survival can meet that. You have surplus food, allowing you the time and energy to keep all your gear maintained. You have shelter from the elements, so you can keep clothing maintained. You are well-groomed enough to be able to get a table at a nice inn, or an appointment with a town official, or a job working for a well-off merchant.

I think you are overthinking this. Being self-sufficient just means that you don't have to spend treasure to maintain a lifestyle.

You want a comfortable lifestyle? Pay 2GP per day.
Wait, you have some craft or profession? Pay 1GP per day.
Wait, you are proficient in survival, and are willing to live out of town (with all the advantage and disadvantages of that)? Pay nothing.

You want a modest lifestyle? Pay 1GP per day (or nothing, if you have a craft or profession).

You can't afford that? Then pay less for a lesser lifestyle and accept the consequences (for example, you get turned away by the nice inn and the town official).

 

[Sacrosanct]

Read the post right above yours. You literally don't understand the terms here.

No man, I'm afraid it's you who is confused. You're saying "comfortable", in the context of middle age living, is described by things that only the royalty or ultra rich actually had access to. So if you want to be accurate (and I assume you do because it's the entire point of this thread), then you need to do an accurate comparison of what was considered "comfortable" in a typical city in the middle ages. It's nothing like you are describing.

 

[Calion]

This thread is making Dick Proenneke roll over in his grave. Seriously Calion, before you continue, you should probably look him up. And he was in Alaska (pretty non hospitable to live in the wilds. I know, I lived there for 3 years myself).

Oh good Lord. He lived for 30 years in a cabin he built himself. Of course he lived well. Of course, he also had modern legal protections, no monsters to deal with (except brown bears, I guess), and probably access to various modern or semi-modern tools, like guns (and he had supplies flown in occasionally, something our survivor adventurer does not have the option of). But even without the latter, of course you can build yourself up a good lifestyle in that time with a lot of skills. That is not at all what's under discussion here.