D&D 5E Self sufficiency

[Calion]

No man, I'm afraid it's you who is confused. You're saying "comfortable", in the context of middle age living, is described by things that only the royalty or ultra rich actually had access to. So if you want to be accurate (and I assume you do because it's the entire point of this thread), then you need to do an accurate comparison of what was considered "comfortable" in a typical city in the middle ages. It's nothing like you are describing.

Now I'm certain you don't understand what's under discussion here. Do me a favor: Please define "comfortable" in this context.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Oh good Lord. He lived for 30 years in a cabin he built himself. Of course he lived well. Of course, he also had modern legal protections, no monsters to deal with (except brown bears, I guess), and probably access to various modern or semi-modern tools, like guns (and he had supplies flown in occasionally, something our survivor adventurer does not have the option of). But even without the latter, of course you can build yourself up a good lifestyle in that time with a lot of skills. That is not at all what's under discussion here.

Do more than skimming a wiki article next time. Look at what he did initially, at the beginning. And look at the things he crafted. Look how long it took him to build an extremely nice cabin (better than any inn) when he had his logs seasoned.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Now I'm certain you don't understand what's under discussion here. Do me a favor: Please define "comfortable" in this context.

Everything you're describing as comfortable was only available to the royalty or super rich. Or in D&D terms as it appears in the PHB: aristocratic. Maid filling tubs of hot water, bathrooms, etc? Those didn't exist except for those top level people.

So a comfortable lifestyle, in a medieval city, meant you had a decent roof over your head, food to eat, a job, and some decent clothes. you probably had one basic tub where you heated your own water and your entire family shared the same bath water (because hot water was a task to get). You could not escape the daily things that made living in a medieval city awful. You still had to walk the streets with the filth and stench. You still had disease infested rats everywhere (even the wealthy had those problems, especially lice that was exemplified by fashion choices of the era). You still had rampant crime exposure. Those are all things cities still have problems with today, let alone 1000 years ago.

 

[Calion]

Do more than skimming a wiki article next time. Look at what he did initially, at the beginning. And look at the things he crafted. Look how long it took him to build an extremely nice cabin (better than any inn) when he had his logs seasoned.

Fine, let's look more deeply at that article.

Proenneke's cabin is hand-made and is notable for its remarkable craftsmanship due to his skill as a carpenter and wood worker

Already, we have a character that has three proficiencies: Carpentry, woodworking and Survival. The standard is only Survival.

Proenneke's friend, bush pilot and missionary Leon Reid "Babe" Alsworth, returned periodically to bring food and orders that Proenneke placed through him to Sears.

Guess what: There's no Sears in Faerûn. And anyway, the standard here is self-sufficiency. No getting of external supplies is allowed; you're not spending any money. What tools did he use to make that cabin? Let's see:

National Park Service[/URL]]Richard Proenneke built his cabin during the summers of 1967 and 1968 using mostly local materials and simple hand held tools. For many of these, he brought in steel parts and made the handles with local wood.

So that answers your question: He built that cabin over two summers. That's hardly an option for our survivalist adventurer. That's a permanent homestead, which is a different thing than simply "living off the land" for a few weeks or months between adventures. It answers my question too: He used hand tools, many that he made himself. Impressive! But…I'm not sure bringing in steel parts is part of the deal here. Maybe he could sacrifice his armor, but then he's poorer when he comes out than when he went in. But whatever; like I said, bringing an axe (or two) is reasonable. Still, with several months of work, he made a very cozy homestead. Possibly, he could qualify for Comfortable…or maybe just Modest. It's hard to tell. He certainly didn't make his own clothing; that came from Sears.

I'm not trying to dismiss his efforts; he was obviously an amazing person. Someone unusual. Let's stat him: Three proficiencies, with at least 15 in the key stats for those proficiencies. That's not the standard. The standard is one proficiency, with no necessity for an outstanding stat. We're just not talking about the same thing here.

 

[Calion]

So a comfortable lifestyle, in a medieval city, meant you had a decent roof over your head, food to eat, a job, and some decent clothes. you probably had one basic tub where you heated your own water and your entire family shared the same bath water (because hot water was a task to get).

No. That's what I thought. What you're describing is a Modest (or perhaps even Poor) lifestyle by the PHB, not a Comfortable one. (I'm not denying the stuff I deleted; I may have exaggerated somewhat, and you're right about the streets in any case.)

You do not understand the standard here. You've been insisting that I'm wrong, but we're arguing different points. You insist that a woodsman's life could be more comfortable than many city dwellers'. Yes! That's right! That's also completely irrelevant to the question. The question is, does that life qualify for "Comfortable" by the PH, a definition which you clearly don't know. You were answering a different question than I was asking, then getting frustrated because your answer was not satisfactory.

 

[Calion]

Why does this happen whenever anyone questions a D&D rule?

"This rule doesn't make sense to me. Could someone explain it?"

"The rule makes perfect sense, there's no way any honest person could see a problem with it, and besides, you're an idiot for caring. This is a fantasy game, the rules don't matter."

 

[Kobold Stew]

So you agree that it is the case that a PC artisan can both make 2 gp per day (Comfortable level) and can only eke out a living at a Poor level (2 sp per day)?

No. Please reread post 3, where I suggest the "poor" subsistence of an artisan is in the context of living off the land, away from cities. That's what I see the point of the sidebar being, and avoids the contradiction. It's not great prose, and yes it could be clearer. I get that you can take the single sentence to make the contradiction, but it is more natural, I feel, in the context of the two paragraph sidebar and the rest of the rules, to read it as most posters in this thread have done.

Does it make sense that a calligrapher can somehow make a lifestyle equivalent to 2sp in the woods? Of course not. But it's fine for a game.

 

[Calion]

No. Please reread post 3, where I suggest the "poor" subsistence of an artisan is in the context of living off the land, away from cities. That's what I see the point of the sidebar being, and avoids the contradiction. It's not great prose, and yes it could be clearer. I get that you can take the single sentence to make the contradiction, but it is more natural, I feel, in the context of the two paragraph sidebar and the rest of the rules, to read it as most posters in this thread have done.

Does it make sense that a calligrapher can somehow make a lifestyle equivalent to 2sp in the woods? Of course not. But it's fine for a game.

Okay, I guess I see what you're trying to say, but there's no way they actually meant to write that. There's no way the intent was for a character with a profession to be able to live as Poor in the woods, but a character without a profession…what? They starve, because they can't sell artworks to the squirrels? If it's not a typo, it's an error.

 

[Al2O3]

A trapper has nicer-than-average clothing? Clothing made of cotton, or even silk? And a woodsman can easily maintain his chain shirt? Where does he get the metal? The tools?

Ever heard of fur clothes? Fur trimmings? The kind of materials the trapper had access to is by default nicer-than-average. The chain shirt probably doesn't need much maintaining, and certainly no metal. I would also guess that the fur and hides left over from hunting for food would be easily bartered for a new axe or whatever when needed. Nothing says you have to live as a hermit just because you live in the woods. Trading fish, fur and meat from the forest for products in the local village is very much a thing that can be done.

Also, this is a fantasy game and the rules should maybe reflect LotR better than real medieval times. Think of Aragon and the Rangers of the North. The elves of Loth Lorien. Or think of other stories with rangers living off the land. And how would you describe the default culture of Wood Elves?

Addition: of we take into account the people you associate with it might also make sense to claim "comfortable" rather than "modest". Sure, you might not make everything yourself. But when you trade/barter for the niceties you want you probably hang out with the merchants and skilled tradespeople.

Sent from my Huawei P10 plus

 

[Sacrosanct]

Fine, let's look more deeply at that article.



Already, we have a character that has three proficiencies: Carpentry, woodworking and Survival. The standard is only Survival.

Carpentry and woodworking (the same thing really) aren't skill proficiency. They're tools in D&D. But that's missing the point anyway. Also, when I said do more than skim a Wiki article, I meant actually go look him up outside of the wiki (which is only the cliff notes version of things). He's actually done filming of himself to show others how he lived.

Guess what: There's no Sears in Faerûn. And anyway, the standard here is self-sufficiency. No getting of external supplies is allowed; you're not spending any money. What tools did he use to make that cabin? Let's see:

Those "periodic trips" was only once, maybe twice a year. And they were for things he just didn't feel like making himself (like clothing). Well, and he was a big fan of cookies. You also seem to be holding him to a completely different standard by not allowing any tools, yet you said earlier he'd have an explorer's pack and dagger and ax. Now you're changing your position. The tools he had were mostly all tools a typical mountain man would have anyway. He did not have a chain saw or anything, jeez.

So that answers your question: He built that cabin over two summers. That's hardly an option for our survivalist adventurer.

Well, if you bothered to read my earlier posts even if you couldn't be bothered to actually do worthwhile research on him, you'd know that it only took him a couple weeks to build the actual cabin.
That first year was just letting the lumber sit there and season.

No. That's what I thought. What you're describing is a Modest (or perhaps even Poor) lifestyle by the PHB, not a Comfortable one. (I'm not denying the stuff I deleted; I may have exaggerated somewhat, and you're right about the streets in any case.)

You do not understand the standard here. You've been insisting that I'm wrong, but we're arguing different points. You insist that a woodsman's life could be more comfortable than many city dwellers'. Yes! That's right! That's also completely irrelevant to the question. The question is, does that life qualify for "Comfortable" by the PH, a definition which you clearly don't know. You were answering a different question than I was asking, then getting frustrated because your answer was not satisfactory.

You keep accusing me of not understanding the standard, but yet it's you who continues to describe "comfortable" with things that do not exist at that level, even in the PHB itself. Nowhere under the description of "comfortable" does it say you have warm baths, or maid filling tubs, or bathrooms, or clothing considered rich at the time (silk, well made cotton, etc). No, what is clear is that you don't understand what life was like in the middle ages for people if that's what you think everyone with a "comfortable" lifestyle would have. Everything you described is what aristocracy would only experience. I'm betting you probably didn't even know that anyone not in the high wealthy class used woodsmoke as a deodorant. Outer clothing was almost never washed, only the linen undergarments. Speaking of "if furs were so great why didn't they wear them", they did, but only the wealthy. In that regard, the woodsman was wearing clothing that only the wealthy could afford in the city; it not only is as good as what a "comfortable" citizen would have, it was considered better---so a woodsman would have better attire than a "comfortable" city person would have.