Sell me on Psionics

[RigaMortus2]

Indeed why not? and once you realize wizard's and clerics are quite capable of the same thing, you realize that the "nova" is not a uniquely psionic thing ...

I am not sure what people mean by the term "nova" but I assume it means to expend all or most of your resources (spell slots/power points) to take out a foe quickly. At any rate, the advantage a psion has over a spellcaster when doing this approach is that they can use their higher level powers more than the spellcasters can use their higher level ones.

A psion could use all their power points on a high level power, where as the wizard could only use theirs a couple of times per day, then they would be stuck with lower level ones. More often though, it is the higher level powers/spells that do the most damage.

 

[The_Ditto]

I am not sure what people mean by the term "nova" but I assume it means to expend all or most of your resources (spell slots/power points) to take out a foe quickly. At any rate, the advantage a psion has over a spellcaster when doing this approach is that they can use their higher level powers more than the spellcasters can use their higher level ones.

Sort of .. the advantage the psion has over the spellcaster is that this tactic is easier to pull off ... that's all ...

Wizard's/clerics are quite capable of it ... and in fact are better at it when they invest into it ... (the psion doesn't need to "invest into it" as it tends to come more naturally).

The advantage of the wizard/cleric is when nova-ing ... they'll out gun and outlast the psion ... when a psion novas, they burn out very very quickly ... the spellcasters don't burn out quite as quick ...

Even after expending the majority of their higher level slots, they tend to still have plenty of lower level slots left for (at least) misc spells, etc ...

When the psion runs dry, he runs dry ... period ..

Two threads worth reading for those who still think psionics is a bit "overpowered":
Here
and
HereHere

Hopefully that'll convince you that at least psionics = magic ... not psionics > magic

A simple phrase that arcane magic (ie wizards) have been spouting since the dawn of time is simply: "Anything you can do, I can do ... (maybe) better" ...
I know it's oversimplified, and certainly by no means is a blanket statement ... but it gives you an idea ... no worries with psionics, there's not much you can do in psionics that you can't already do with arcane/divine ...

Cheers!!

 

[KarinsDad]

A psion could use all their power points on a high level power, where as the wizard could only use theirs a couple of times per day, then they would be stuck with lower level ones. More often though, it is the higher level powers/spells that do the most damage.

This is only part of the Nova equation.

Psions also get the equivalent of certain feats with certain powers. For example, Energy Missile gains:

1) Multiple Energy Substitution feats for free.
2) Equivalent of Shape Spell feat for free.
3) Additional damage per die for free.
4) No damage cap (which is basically what you stated with your level comment).

The only thing that offsets this at all is the extra PP required to boost powers. However, that is not a Nova issue. That is a balance issue. Nova-wise, the Psion can flat out outboost the Wizard.

A 10th level Wizard does 35 average points of damage with a Fireball. He can Empower Spell it to 52 points. A 10th level Psion can do an average of 45 points of damage with an Energy Missile. He can Empower it to 54 average points of damage. He can Overchannel Empower it to 67 average points of damage.

The Wizard is limited to 2 of the Empowered Fireballs and about 4 normal Fireballs or 244 total points of damage. The Psion can do about 8 of the Overchanneled Empowered EMs for about 536 total points of damage (or 11 non-overchanneled ones for 594 damage).

And, the save DC for the Psion is 2 (3 for Overchanneled) higher for EM than for the Wizard's Fireball.

Granted, the Wizard still has spells left over, but the point is, for massive damage in the shortest amount of time, Psions are better at Nova.

Finally, the difference here gets greater the higher the level of the character. The 11th level Wizard is still doing the same damage with these same spells and jumping up to Cone of Cold does not significantly help (since it cannot be Empowered yet) whereas the 11th level Psion is doing ~4.5 (or ~7 for Empowered) more damage for the additional PP.

 

[Bacris]

But for everything the psion does well, it's just as easy to point out things the wizard / cleric / or druid does better than the psion. For the psion's direct damage, you've got the wizard's illusions. For the psion's extra actions, you've got the wizard's polymorph, etc, etc.

Each system has its pros and cons - don't get me wrong. Psionics is not perfect and going in expecting it to be perfect is going to be a problem. But if you take those few things into account or tweak what doesn't work for you, it should be pretty easy to integrate.

 

[Nifft]

A 10th level Wizard does 35 average points of damage with a Fireball. He can Empower Spell it to 52 points. A 10th level Psion can do an average of 45 points of damage with an Energy Missile. He can Empower it to 54 average points of damage. He can Overchannel Empower it to 67 average points of damage.

The Wizard is limited to 2 of the Empowered Fireballs and about 4 normal Fireballs or 244 total points of damage. The Psion can do about 8 of the Overchanneled Empowered EMs for about 536 total points of damage (or 11 non-overchanneled ones for 594 damage).

Well... Wizards have spell slots other than 3rd and 5th.

Let's add in his Scorching Ray slots and his Empowered Scorching Ray slots. (10th level is perfectly sub-optimal, right? He won't get his third ray until 11th level, and then those numbers will jump by +50%.) Let's throw in four magic missile spells, too.

3 x 4th level = 3 * (6d6 * 2) = 3 * 42 = 126
4 x 2nd level = 4 * (4d6 * 2) = 4 * 28 = 112
4 x 1st level = 4 * (5d4+5) = 4 * 18.5 = 74
----
Total: 556

So... the Wizard does more damage than the Nova Psion, but less than the conservative Psion. (And total damage is NOT the Wizard's strong point. That award goes to the Sorcerer. Also, the Sorcerer's flexible spellcasting and flexibility with metamagic allow him to actually do this, while a Wizard would be frankly insane to pick his spells this way.)

Note also that energy missile has very strict targeting requirements -- it could damage your five foes if they were all within 15 feet of each other, but how likely is that? In practice, it's a two target power. Fireball does much better damage against swarms, crowds and formations. (There's a Psi equivalent of fireball, but it's 4th level and Kinetecist-exclusive.)

Finally, fireball is a Long-range area effect while energy missile is a Close-range limited target power. Hard to complain that energy missile does more damage, since it targets fewer enemies, at a much closer range.

Cheers, -- N

 

[KarinsDad]

Sort of .. the advantage the psion has over the spellcaster is that this tactic is easier to pull off ... that's all ...

Wizard's/clerics are quite capable of it ... and in fact are better at it when they invest into it ... (the psion doesn't need to "invest into it" as it tends to come more naturally).

You keep claiming this erroneous point, but you have yet to illustrate it as viable.

Plus, you have to illustrate it at level 1, level 2, ... level 20+ for your point to be valid.

It's all nice and well for a Wizard to be able to nova at level 18, but that does not mean that he can do it better at every or even most levels.

Where is the proof in your pudding?

 

[KarinsDad]

Well... Wizards have spell slots other than 3rd and 5th.

Let's add in his Scorching Ray slots and his Empowered Scorching Ray slots. (10th level is perfectly sub-optimal, right? He won't get his third ray until 11th level, and then those numbers will jump by +50%.) Let's throw in four magic missile spells, too.

3 x 4th level = 3 * (6d6 * 2) = 3 * 42 = 126
4 x 2nd level = 4 * (4d6 * 2) = 4 * 28 = 112
4 x 1st level = 4 * (5d4+5) = 4 * 18.5 = 74
----
Total: 556

So... the Wizard does more damage than the Nova Psion,

Wrong.

Scorching Ray and Magic Missile is single opponent. Energy Missile is multiple opponents simultaneously.

594 points of damage for multiple opponents is much greater than 244 points of damage for multiple opponents plus 312 points of damage for single opponents.

Even without counting this, your math is off. 594 > 556.


The other aspect of this is that of it being a Nova. Magic Missile or Scorching Ray is all nice and well, but it is still less damage per attack.

 

[Nifft]

Nova-wise, the Psion can flat out outboost the Wizard.

...

The Wizard is limited to 2 of the Empowered Fireballs and about 4 normal Fireballs or 244 total points of damage. The Psion can do about 8 of the Overchanneled Empowered EMs for about 536 total points of damage (or 11 non-overchanneled ones for 594 damage).

My math is awesome.

You're comparing the NON-Nova Psion to the Wizard. If you look carefully, you'll see that I said the Wizard can out damage the Nova Psion.

But thanks, -- N

 

[Nifft]

Scorching Ray and Magic Missile is single opponent. Energy Missile is multiple opponents simultaneously.

Yup. Up to five within a 15 foot diameter. Does that happen often in your campaign? It does not happen often in mine.

But let's give you the benefit of the doubt: 10d6+10 times five foes.

Fireball is up to ... let's see ... 72 Medium-sized critters. Wizard deals 10d6 times seventy-two foes.

I think I win

Cheers, -- N

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

In most higher level campaigns, that I have participated in, the control about when to go to rest was under control of the players (or rather the PCs), not the DM.

IMHO, that is only because the DM was ceding control to the players- any DM worth his screen can keep a party from resting until he deems its time for them to rest.