Sell me on Psionics

[KarinsDad]

My math is awesome.

...

Fireball is up to ... let's see ... 72 Medium-sized critters. Wizard deals 10d6 times seventy-two foes.

20 foot radius in DND = 44 squares or 44 Medium-sized creatures.

Yeah, your math is real awesome.

And of course, The Psion could use Energy Ball or Energy Missile based on whichever is more effective for the situation.

Next.

I think I win

Uh huh.

5 opponents happens a LOT with EM. Battlefield control spells and powers easily herd enemies into smaller areas. A simple way to get 3-5 opponents is to just have the PC Fighter charge. The enemy tries to then flank and overwhelm him and the PC Psion then counterattacks and crushes them. Even if the Psion does not kill them all (which at 33 or 67 points per round at 10th level is fairly devastating), the Fighter usually can finish them off.

5 opponents targeted happens more often with EM than with Fireball (or Energy Ball) due to the problem of haphazardly casting Fireball with friendlies in the area. A Wizard with Fireball is often a Wizard picking a different spell to cast.


So far, your math is batting zero.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

To address the OP:

I love psionics- even the earlier editions. That said, unless you have a pressing need or desire to include Psionics, don't. If you're predisposed to dislike a system (for whatever reason), you won't run it well.

Its just like any other alt-magic system (like Incarnum, for example), either it fits your game or it doesn't.

However, D&D's default system only simulates a narrow range of all the world's hypothesized magic types/styles. You may find that using it or other kinds or magic systems may be better for simulating different kinds of magic.

For example, you could use it to simulate Tattoo Magic, with every psionic power represented by a physical tattoo on the body of the PC. The game mechanics of psionics (like no ASF) fits the themes and tropes of tattoo magic much better than the default magic system. If there is a power you think doesn't fit the archetypes of Tattoo Magic- say, the Energy Missile described in this thread- omit it. You may also find that certain classes fit the archetypes better as well- the PsyWar, Soulknife, and the guys from CompPsi are closer to the archetypes than the blaster classes (Wilder and Psion).

Also, psionics models certain archetypes better than the core arcane casters. Occultists like "psychics" who remote view or "read" items, spirit-channellers or even pure fireslinging are big in psionic-focused fiction. Johnny from "Dead Zone" is a modern fantasy character, equally so the pyrokinetic Charlie from "Firestarter"- no "scientific" explanation for their abilities is ever given (attempted, but not proven).

 

[kaomera]

Thanx for all the replies. I'm not really that concerned by balance issues - I had never heard the term "Nova" in this context, nor had I heard anything about the XPH being broken (and my more power-gaming oriented players have never made a fuss about me not including psionics in my campaigns). I've had a number of players ask if I was using psionics in my game, and I've usually just said "no". It occurs to me that I may have missed out on some cool characters from this, but no-one has ever really seemed to have a problem with it. They've always come up with something else and I've never actually had a player come to me with a cool concept for a psionic character. If I did, I think I'd probably be open to adding psionics to the mix, but otherwise I just don't see a huge reason to bother... (And I've avoided Incarnum and the Tome of Magic for pretty much the same reason.)

My specific concern revolved around the city of Elraydia from the DCC35 campaign setting, which I've actually pretty much come to the conclusion is kind of a dumb idea regardless of it involving psionics. It's supposed to be a secret, hidden settlement anyway, so it should be no real problem simply to ignore it. If someone really wants to play a psionic character, then I'll let them convince me, but until then I don't think I'm going to be specifically steering my game in that direction...

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I've had a number of players ask if I was using psionics in my game, and I've usually just said "no". It occurs to me that I may have missed out on some cool characters from this, but no-one has ever really seemed to have a problem with it. They've always come up with something else and I've never actually had a player come to me with a cool concept for a psionic character.

We probably don't know each other, but I'm usually the player who asks, gets refused, and comes up with something else without saying anything.

Why?

I have probably been rejected 10 times out of every 11 times I ask to play psionics, so I ask first because I don't want to spend time on a PC concept I'll never use. Besides, I typically have about 100 PC concepts sitting around. Why bother fighting the DM over a Githzerai Monk/PsyWar or an Anthro-Ape Soulknife when I can play my Hafling Barbarian with 2WF, spiked armor, bladed claws, some trog-stink vials? Oh, did I mention his Canadian accent?

I'm positive there are other players like me in this regard.

I guarantee you've missed out on some cool PCs. I can also guarantee you've missed some min-maxed munchkin PCs and ill-conceived builds that will have their players trying to sucide their PCs to roll up something else.

The only reason to add Psionics, Incarnum, or ToM casters is to add fun to your campaign, and if the DM doesn't like something, the players won't like the result of going against the DM's preconceptions.

Example: even though its solidly within the rules, several of my current DMs are definitely anti-pet. Every Animal Companion and Familiar has died- quickly. No one bothers with a Paladin (those are usually banned anyway), so we don't know what would happen to their mounts. The only animals that have survived are a pair of cart-horses and a liberated pack of dogs.

Result- nobody bothers with these class features anymore.

Playing a psionic PC under an uncomitted or even prejudiced DM would be torturous.

 

[Bacris]

It truly disturbs me the amount of bad-DM anecdotes I've seen

It makes me very thankful for the DMs I've had.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Restricting options you don't feel fit your campaign world isn't bad- its part of world creation.

(Though it can be pretty annoying...)

Allowing options you don't feel fit your campaign, and later punishing players for taking those options? That IS bad.

 

[kaomera]

Playing a psionic PC under an uncomitted or even prejudiced DM would be torturous.

I don't really feel like I'm "committed" to anything, other than the players having cool PCs. Now, obviously, there's an advantage to playing the stuff I like to play, as I already have a bunch of ideas for cool stuff your character could do... But lately I've been wondering (more than I'd like to have to) why I am having to come up with cool stuff for the PCs. It seems like, sometimes, the player will think a character concept should be cool, but not have any actual, concrete ideas as to what would actually make their character cool. As far as mechanics / combat goes all I can really do is try and challenge the party, I don't think I should have to come up with encounters that only one player's character can overcome to "show off their strengths". Rollplay I try to build off of PC to PC interaction, if there isn't any, then that makes things hard on me... But I'll still try and talk to the player; "What do you want to do with the character?" sort of stuff...

So, and I'm not trying to make statements about anyone here's play (I don't know you people irl, really...), can you give me some ideas of good psionic character concepts, that might spark my interest?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

1) One thing you could do when contemplating adding a new type of magic system is running a 1-shot adventure that revolves around the new rules. If you like it, add it. If you fear the time constraints, you could design the RPG equivalent of a training/obstacle course and just run parties through it, evaluating the classes- how does the PsyWar handle in the same fight as you'd expect a Barbarian to handle? How does he compare to the Paladin? How good is a Shadowcaster in "wizardy" fire support as opposed to a Psion?

2) Good Psionic PC concepts? That's subjective. However, typical builds you'll find are:

a) Psions as blasters, and Wilders as Sorcerer analogues. They're gooooood at it. Downside- if they burn too brightly, they'll burn most quickly. Like other base casters, there are a number of PrCls tailored to them- the Mystic Theurge has a Psionic/Arcane version and a Psionic/Incarnum variants, for instance.

b) PsyWars as Expanding head-crushers. Expand is Psionics' equivalent to Enlarge, but can boost a PC 2 steps in size. Coupled with a 2 handed weapon or a reach weapon, he's dishing out LOTS of damage. Add a race with powerful build (XPH's Half-Giants or Races of Stone's Goliaths) and there is a further bump. Of course, they also work well with the Kensai PrCl.

c) Soulknives as Wizard-hunters/Assassins. Armed with a weapon that is nearly impossible to get rid of that ultimately can do damage to the 3 caster stats, they do that job nicely. (Some call them underpowered...but that's usually because people compare them to Fighters, when they should be compared to classes like the Monk. Besides, a lot of that gets rectified with Dragon #341, Hyperconscious, and CompPsi.)

d) Don't like the Psionic Base classes? PCs with the Wild Talent Feat or members of races that are naturally psionic can qualify for certain psionic PrCls (like the Pyrokinetic and the WotC website variants for other energy types, for example) while otherwise sticking to Core classes. A githzerai monk is pretty archetypal...but add in levels of the Electrokinetic PrCl and you've got Raiden from Mortal Kombat. A Xeph Bard with levels in Sonokinetic could sing his opponents to death- contributing directly where most Bards merely buff. A Thri-Kreen Barbarian/Acetokinetic would rage into battle coated in his acidic nimbus, slashing wildly with his natural weapons... And, of course, a naturally psionic PC (or one with Wild Talent) qualifies for all those nice Psionic feats.

But this is just stuff anyone could come up with- ask your players what they would play if they could play psionic PCs. They might surprise you.

 

[The_Ditto]

This is only part of the Nova equation.

Psions also get the equivalent of certain feats with certain powers. For example, Energy Missile gains:

1) Multiple Energy Substitution feats for free.
2) Equivalent of Shape Spell feat for free.
3) Additional damage per die for free.
4) No damage cap (which is basically what you stated with your level comment).
.

I used to believe this too .. until I got the spell Compendium ... I've been reading it lately and come across a few spells in there that give options for energy types and areas ... so again, this isn't an exclusive right of psionics anymore ...
(when I get a chance, I'll try to dig up the spells I saw ... unless somebody else can help and knows a few of them off the top of their heads??)

Cheers!

 

[KarinsDad]

I used to believe this too .. until I got the spell Compendium ... I've been reading it lately and come across a few spells in there that give options for energy types and areas ... so again, this isn't an exclusive right of psionics anymore ...
(when I get a chance, I'll try to dig up the spells I saw ... unless somebody else can help and knows a few of them off the top of their heads??)

The only one from SC that I know of that allows for multiple energy types is Energy Spheres.

It does set damage, so it cannot be Empowered. It is 4th level, so it cannot be used in lower level slots. It does 25 points of damage at 7th level, 50 at 10th, 75 at 15th, and 100 at 20th. Each sphere hits a single creature, so 100 points on 1 creature or 20 points on 5 creatures at 20th level (or some other such combo). It is close range. Energy Missile is medium range.

It also acts as Energy Resistance for the same amount for one round per level if a given sphere is not used offensively.

And against many higher level creatures, they will be immune or resistant to one or more of the energy types since the caster gets one of each energy type. So, the caster cannot choose an Energy type for all spheres that he knows will affect a given creature (e.g. with a Knowledge check), he is stuck with a sphere of each energy type.

Energy Missile can do more damage than this on 5 creatures at 5th level. I hardly consider this a Nova advantage for Wizards or Sorcerers.


Having a spell that allows a 20th level Wizard to do less damage than a 5th level Psion does not support the "Wizards can Nova too" POV.


Btw, Energy Spheres is semi-ok as a defensive spell. Use it to protect the caster from all energy attacks until the end of the battle and then use all 5 spheres offensively to polish off the last few attackers.

But as an offensive spell it's pretty lame. It takes two rounds to do damage (one to cast and one to fire off the spheres) and it is basically single target if the caster wants to do serious damage (or weaker against multiple targets).