Sell me on Psionics
- Thread starter kaomera
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KarinsDad said:
I don't think that was the one I was thinking of .... there's another one ... I'll look it up later ...
KarinsDad said:
Huh? You lost me ... I only brought up the energy-type spell in SC as a counter-point to "Psionic Energy Powers are too good" ... that's all ... has nothing to do with Nova ... never said it did ... never will ..
I provided the links for the nova argument ... you're welcome to ignore/disagree with them as you will ... I'm not here to convince you ...
(and sorry if this comes across wrong, but I have better things to do with my time than to try to convince 1 person ... *shrug* )Facts are quite simple:
- Psions can "nova" easily "out of the box" .. as you said .. this is easy to show ...
For starters, as you put it, they can "mini-nova" from level 1 ... wizards/sorcerers can as well but it's a bit trickier (ie requiring more selective spell choices)
- Psions can burn through their PP really fast .. simply by augmenting ... again, this is a pretty straight forward statement and I would nope doesn't need much additional "proof" ... that being said, just because they can burn through their PP doesn't make them unbalanced in comparison to other spell casters ... in fact ...
- wizards can burn through spell slots at a pretty good rate, easily keeping up to psions at about mid-level .. and easily exceeding them at high level ... this is done (easily) by use of careful "cherry-picking" of swift/immediate action spells (of which I've noticed quite a few nice ones in Spell Compendium), as well as Quicken spell when it becomes available ... (or even Twin Spell or Repeat Spell ... )
This point requires more "evidence", true ... however, you can refer back to my link on the arcane nova for the step by step on how the wizards can meet - and in fact - out do the psion in this department ...
- that all being said, when their respective "novas" are done ... the arcane/divine will easily have more resources left over (resources being spell slots compared to the Psions PP ...)
again, those links I provided will back that up with the examples contained within .. you just need to do some reading ... if you're interested, that is ...
Nifft
Penguin Herder
KarinsDad said:
Excellent, thanks for picking a number. 44 * 35 > 5 * 45.
And why would you ever send a clanky Fighter in first? 10th level is when the Rogue gets Improved Evasion. Send that sneaky little bastard in, get the 43 bad guys to jump on him, and fry them all.
KarinsDad said:
Fireball was the spell you picked for comparison.
You're half right, though. Direct damage is not the Wizard's most optimal strategy, especially after 10th level. Even if Psions beat Wizards in this area, it would not really harm the Wizard's core competency.
Cheers, -- N
I have a question:
Can we just agree to disagree?
The OP has already stated his stance - a few folks have brought up great points about saying "no" and waiting for the players to argue their characters, and the OP has said balance concern really isn't an issue with him.
Do we really need to add yet another balance debate when both sides have pretty much stated they aren't going to change their opinion?
Can we just agree to disagree?
The OP has already stated his stance - a few folks have brought up great points about saying "no" and waiting for the players to argue their characters, and the OP has said balance concern really isn't an issue with him.
Do we really need to add yet another balance debate when both sides have pretty much stated they aren't going to change their opinion?
kigmatzomat
Legend
I like psionics for plot reasons. In many campaigns arcane magic is controlled by the gods (The Weave in FR, Moons in DL, etc). Gods can withhold power from the mortal races at will. Matter of fact, somatic, material, and verbal components are things the gods taught to make magic easier to use at the cost of being easy to stop.
Psionics, however, is magic originating within mortals themselves. The gods can interfere with it (global anti-psionic field) but it is so much effort the gods don't do it. Instead the divinities work through their mortal intermediaries. Psionicists are mistrusted, often represented as witches or warlocks ("Godless magic!"), and the priests and wizards tend to bring what political pressure they have to drive them out.
They are outcasts who portray themselves as sorcerors, or even go whole hog as warlocks and witches who gained their power from nefarious sources, rather than reveal their true source of power. Remote pocket communities train their offspring in the mental arts and long for the day they are in such numbers that they cannot be supressed anymore.
The XPH psionic mechanics are one way to implement the growth of thematic powers that some systems had in spell-chains. It works out well for characters who are going to have a distinctive theme. Psi-warriors fit in pretty easily as a self-augmenting fighter/caster class. They can always use feats to pick up powers not on their list later.
Psionics, however, is magic originating within mortals themselves. The gods can interfere with it (global anti-psionic field) but it is so much effort the gods don't do it. Instead the divinities work through their mortal intermediaries. Psionicists are mistrusted, often represented as witches or warlocks ("Godless magic!"), and the priests and wizards tend to bring what political pressure they have to drive them out.
They are outcasts who portray themselves as sorcerors, or even go whole hog as warlocks and witches who gained their power from nefarious sources, rather than reveal their true source of power. Remote pocket communities train their offspring in the mental arts and long for the day they are in such numbers that they cannot be supressed anymore.
The XPH psionic mechanics are one way to implement the growth of thematic powers that some systems had in spell-chains. It works out well for characters who are going to have a distinctive theme. Psi-warriors fit in pretty easily as a self-augmenting fighter/caster class. They can always use feats to pick up powers not on their list later.
The_Ditto said:
My quote that you were directly responding to was discussing Novas.
If you want to change the topic off of Novas, fine. Just let us know you are doing so.
But the ability to pick and choose energy types is a Nova option. For example, hit those demons with Cold because that does damage whereas Electricity doesn't.
The_Ditto said:I provided the links for the nova argument ... you're welcome to ignore/disagree with them as you will ... I'm not here to convince you ...
No, it does not work this way. If you want to make a point, fine. Make it and back it up with specific data and examples.
Providing links to 50 page arguments is silly and invalid in a debate (and especially to the WotC Psionic boards were anyone with a different POV is shot down and attacked).
You can quote arguments from those pages, but to illustrate your POV, you have to provide the information directly. You have to do your own homework. Don't expect anyone else to do it for you.
Until you provide your own research and data to back up your POV (even if you pull it from those web pages or wherever), your POV is still suspect on this topic.
Psions are the Nova experts until illustrated otherwise.
You have not yet illustrated Wizards or Clerics as the Nova experts, you have merely made claims that experienced players can make Wizards or Clerics into Nova experts without backing that claim up with anything real.
You have not listed one spell or one feat that does this.
The_Ditto said:Facts are quite simple:
- Psions can "nova" easily "out of the box" .. as you said .. this is easy to show ...
For starters, as you put it, they can "mini-nova" from level 1 ... wizards/sorcerers can as well but it's a bit trickier (ie requiring more selective spell choices)
- Psions can burn through their PP really fast .. simply by augmenting ... again, this is a pretty straight forward statement and I would nope doesn't need much additional "proof" ... that being said, just because they can burn through their PP doesn't make them unbalanced in comparison to other spell casters ... in fact ...
- wizards can burn through spell slots at a pretty good rate, easily keeping up to psions at about mid-level .. and easily exceeding them at high level ... this is done (easily) by use of careful "cherry-picking" of swift/immediate action spells (of which I've noticed quite a few nice ones in Spell Compendium), as well as Quicken spell when it becomes available ... (or even Twin Spell or Repeat Spell ... )
This point requires more "evidence", true ... however, you can refer back to my link on the arcane nova for the step by step on how the wizards can meet - and in fact - out do the psion in this department ...
- that all being said, when their respective "novas" are done ... the arcane/divine will easily have more resources left over (resources being spell slots compared to the Psions PP ...)
again, those links I provided will back that up with the examples contained within .. you just need to do some reading ... if you're interested, that is ...
You have yet to illustrate any of this with actual examples. As written here, it is just opinion.
As for reading, no sorry. I am not reading 50 or more web pages to find out whether your POV is accurate or not.
I assume your POV is totally inaccurate on this particular topic (since I have researched it myself many times and found the counterarguments to be totally lacking) until you illustrate otherwise.
No doubt about it. Wizards and Clerics have many more options than Psions. But, those options do not equate to becoming Nova Experts.
There are some specific levels where Wizards and Clerics can metamagic a lower level spell and still not reach their damage cap and they can do some serious damage (due to autoscaling of damage). But, that still has yet to be illustrated as more damaging than what a Psion can do at the same level.
SteveC
Doing the best imitation of myself
You know, I just have to point this out: that is not the case. No one is the nova expert until it's proven, not psions, not sorcerers, not the warmage. When you talk about novaing, the burden of proof is on you to prove that psions are better at this, you don't get to simply assume it and then have everyone argue you down. That's arguing a negative, and if you have a background in logic or philosophy, you know that isn't something you should ever choose to do.KarinsDad said:
After all, just because someone says something doesn't mean it's true.
I now return you to the discussion.
--Steve
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