Sell me on Savage Worlds -- for Fantasy

catsclaw227

First Post
OK -- I have been seeing a lot of mention of Savage Worlds in DM bBurnout threads, in "is D&D 3.x too complex" threads and in "d20 lite" threads.

I would like to consider it for a Fantasy game, not really HIGH fantasy, not really grim 'n gritty either I guess

I know it's not d20, but is it OGL? What are it's strengths? Weaknesses? Should I pony-up and get it? How easy is it for d20 players to get onboard?

Are there good fansites? Who is doing most of the good supplements for it? I saw the Fantasy Toolkits on RPGNow (Fantasy Bestiary, Fantasy Gear, Fantasy World Builder, Fantasy Character Generator). Are they worth it?

I'd like to hear from fan-boys, haters and anyone in between, but please don't just say: "It sucks" without telling me why with some supplemental backup.

Thanks!
 

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I could probably be considered a fanboy, so be warned. :) I've gamed since the early 80s, went on a hiatus for much of the 90s, starting gaming again with 3e, but got burned out by all the world required to DM, so switched to SW a few years ago, and haven't looked back since.


So... I love Savage Worlds for Fantasy. Its the easily fastest system I've ever played - quick character creation (10 minutes or less), quick for DM prep (95% story, 5% mechanics/stats), quick for combat (we did a combat with 30+ combatants, including multiple spellcasters, in only our second session using SW, and took maybe 40 minutes total), quick for non-combat resolution (if you want it to be), innovative in its use of props (cards for initiative, poker chips for bennies, etc), and it focuses specifically on being Fast, Fun, Furious. (Its also multi-genre, but thats outside of the scope of your request. But it really is adaptable to anything.)

That said, despite its focus on being rules-lite and fast paced, its not incomplete or rules-missing. In fact, it has some of the best treatments of rules that other games usually gloss over - the effect of wounds and fatigue, rules for tricks (like sand in the eyes, or the classic "Look out behind you!"). It also handles common knowledge skills/abilities really well, and it has a good list of Edges (similar to Feats), and Hindrances. Hindrances, IMO, make a game great. Our characters are remembered more by things they said/did because of their Hindrances more than any magic item they possessed or level they achieved or anything. They really add depth to characters.

From a GM's perspective, there is very little accounting/bookkeeping during the game. In fact, I can walk around the table in combat, having the players roll for PCs and NPCs alike, and not need to track a million little details on paper. Its a wondrous thing. Plus, prep time is minimal. NPC and monster stats - when necessary - can be made up on the fly, or at worst, take a few minutes per NPC. No joking. Because the game is classless and the Edges aren't setup in complicated trees, you can pretty much assign what you want an NPC to have, and be done. <snap> Just like that.

However, its not terribly granular. Skill-wise, the design philosophy is that skills that aren't going to be used regularly (every game session) don't exist; they're wrapped into other skills. For example, the Fighting skill covers all melee weapons, period. The Shooting skills cover all genre-appropriate missile weapons (bows and crossbows in Fantasy, guns in Modern/SciFi, etc). The Throwing skill covers all genre-appropriate thrown weapons (daggers, darts, grenades, whatever). Similarly, there is a Driving, Piloting and Boating skill that cover all the appropriate vehicles. There is a single Stealth skill (not Hide, Move Silently, etc) and a single Notice skill that covers surprise, spot, search, etc.


If you're going to look at SW for Fantasy, I would recommend getting the Revised Rulebook, the Fantasy World Builder, and the Shaintar Player's Guide (the latter two are available only in PDF AFAIK). The next thing I'd look at is the Bestiary (PDF), but there is a good treatment of monsters at Savage Heroes (more on that below). You might also look at 50 Fathoms (combo Pirates/Fantasy) and Evernight (Fantasy in a world taken over by aliens), but I'd start with the others first.


A couple of negative notes:

SW magic takes some getting used to, and IMO is the weakest link (its the part of the game I tinker the most with, at least). Some folks like it fine, mind you. I've just found that it isn't as sweeping or powerful as most systems (especially D&D) and its far more tactical (as opposed to strategic or utilitarian) in nature. Durations are shorter, powers do not effect as large of areas, and in the powers are designed out of the box not to overlap a number of other character abilities. (So in general, mages are not magical jack of all trades.) There are a variety of systems put together by fans and change the nature of it, and one of the great points about SW is that it is really easy to make such changes (although every SW vet - me included - will encourage to play "as-is" first, to understand some of the subtleties of the system before making major or even minor changes). Also, SW uses Power Points that regenerate hourly, so there is a bit less of a daily resource management feel to it, and more of a per encounter. For many, thats a positive. I should also note that the reason I listed the World Builder and Shaintar as must-haves for fantasy is because they add additional powers (spells), and have some nice ways of looking at Arcane Backgrounds. I view them as indispensable for magic.

Some find SW too pulpy and light. There are ways to mitigate that (reduce the number of Bennies, for one, and eliminate Jokers from the initiative deck), but that is a complaint I've seen occasionally. This is going to sound like an odd downside, but as a system, it is way more open than many people are used to, because it doesn't have the million crunchy rules of 3x. There is freedom in that openness however; characters are ultimately less restricted in what they're not able to do, because less is explicitly spelled out as a skill or Edge.

The last real downside are the number of products available. You're not going to see a book a month for Savage Worlds, and of the ones you see, most won't be fantasy. There aren't individual books on races, another on Edges, and yet another on Powers. I think you'll find you don't need them, but some people like to have that massive product coverage. Peg Inc (the makers of SW) have the opposite design philosophy. Their goal (for the most part, Deadlands excluded) is a two-book ideal: the main rulebook and the setting book. No splats, not Complete this or Ultimate that. The toolkits are to help you flesh things out if you want them, but they are by no means setting-specific nor required (although I tend to the think the Fantasy World Builder should be required for Fantasy - its that good).


On to fan sites. Here are a few:

There is a yahoo group: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/Savage_Worlds/

There is a great fansite with alternate rules and some great conversions: http://www.savageheroes.com/ - this also contains the Beasts PDF mentioned above (by Butch Curry), listed in the conversions section. It has a ton of D&D monsters converted to SW.

Dragonsfoot had some SW resources, but I haven't checked there lately, to be honest. I'm not sure if they still have a SW section or not.

There is also the Savage Worlds site - http://www.peginc.com - and their forum - http://www.peginc.com/forum - which are both good resources. Find the downloads section of the site and download all the stuff that is there, regardless of genre.



Finally, its not OGL, and its a much different game than d20. Much different. There are no classes, no HP (you have 3 wound levels), no AC per se, and instead of ability scores you have attribute dice (d4, d6, d8, d10 and d12) that you roll when the attribute in question is used - skills also work this way. Combat is much faster but similarly tactically rich in nature (you can use minis or not, it works well both ways). I actually think SW encourages more tactical and heroic thinking in combat; toe-to-toe fighting is a sure way to go down quickly, but ganging up, tricking, taunting, called shots and other tactics all have real value as options.

All that said, it didn't take long for our group - mainly used to 3x - to convert over and like the system. Part of that is because we get so much more done per session. No hyperbole - we would get through so much more action in a single session of SW than we would in multiple sessions of 3x. And that simply means more fun/time invested.


Like I said, I'm probably a SW fanboy. Its the first system that I could watch any movie, look at a scene and go, "I could do that in Savage Worlds". I tout it so highly because it meets my needs. Its fun, fast, easy and rewarding as a system both as a player and a GM.
 

I've played it twice and have read the rules a couple of times. I would think a huge appeal of the system is the very quick prep time. NPCs can be hammered out very quickly and adventures are really all about building encounters and conflict. I enjoyed how the system handled characters in a mass combat situation.

I would consider it for a one-off, but I enjoy D&D for now and I have a huge pile of WFRP books waiting for my next campaign ;)
 

The new Explorer's Edition of the core rules should be out before the end of August, and will retail for $9.99.

http://studio2publishing.com/home/modules/news/

(this was the top of the news section at the time I posted this)

IMHO it's a very, very good game system. It's designed for fast (and furious, and fun...) play from both sides of the table. GM prep time is slashed while at the same time players get to do a lot of neat stuff in-game.

Where it lacks in comparison to d20 is in sheer weight of character-building options. Not to say that the character-building meta-game isn't a part of SW, or that it's not as much fun (in general), but it's not as... Well, some would say "deep", others would say "time-consuming". Either choice of words could be good or bad depending on the player. I'd say that magic is definitely a part of this.
 

SavageRobby said:
There is a great fansite with alternate rules and some great conversions: http://www.savageheroes.com/ - this also contains the Beasts PDF mentioned above (by Butch Curry), listed in the conversions section. It has a ton of D&D monsters converted to SW.

Thanks for the shout-out. :) But just FYI, that link on Savage Heroes has been dead for awhile now. If you're still looking for Savage Beasts, though, it's in the downloads section at ZombieNirvana.com.
 



Savage Worlds works great for fantasy! But I will warn you, if your concept of fantasy revolves around mages being walking spell arsenals as in DnD, then you may be in for a rude shock. Strickly by the rules, a high ranking mage will probably have no more that 10 spells at his disposal. There are plenty of folks who have wrestled with that, house ruled it, but in the end that's usually where it stands. So just keep that in mind. I've seen players who otherwise like SW get really testy when it comes to the magic system.

Once you get past that, SW works great for fantasy! Whether you homebrew or want to play in a published world setting, its easy to do once you get started. There are people who have converted Eberron, LotR, Spelljammer, you name it. Myself, I based my fantasy campaign in Gygax's Lejendary Earth setting. It was a breeze to adapt. Or you can check out Shaintar -- a homegrown SW fantasy setting. 50 Fathoms is also fantasy, though low-magic and very-pirate oriented. Sundered Skies, which should see release this year, is also a spin on the standard fantasy setting.

Having played it for four years now, I think SW works better for low to medium fantasy than high fantasy. It would be a perfect fit for the swords and sorcery subgenre. But that's just my opinion.

catsclaw227 said:
Are there good fansites? Who is doing most of the good supplements for it? I saw the Fantasy Toolkits on RPGNow (Fantasy Bestiary, Fantasy Gear, Fantasy World Builder, Fantasy Character Generator). Are they worth it?

Plenty of good websites. Savage Heroes and Sharkbytes are good places to start. Also do a Google search for Butch Curry's Bestiary.

The toolkits are great! I can't speak for the Character Generator, as those aren't my thing. But the Bestiary, Gear and Builder books are fantastic. I can't recommend them enough. The World Builder contains around 60 new powers of various quality.

Tom
 

I can echo everything SavageRobby said above. I had the same experience. My friends and I started a regular game group back up when D&D 3rd edition came out. We played that same campaign until just last year. The PCs had reached about 15th level. Each session became a bookkeeping nightmare and each battle a slog through dozens of hit points. We just burned out on it.

So we switched to Savage Worlds and 50 Fathoms and it's been going great. One of the best things about the game is the Extras rules (other games call them mooks or minions). Extras only have three states: Ok, Shaken, or Incapacitated. So you don't have to keep track of hit points for all those thugs you throw at the PCs. I can throw a literal boatload of pirates at my PCs and track their status with glass beads next to the minis.

And, honestly, hit points just measure the constant wearing down of a character's defenses until those last few blows takes him out. So why track HP at all? In SW, you tend to battle for a while until a good shot (or better yet, good tactics) lead to a big damage roll that takes out your foe.
 

This is all excellent feedback!

Cutter XXIII said:
I'll echo the good words for SW here...great game. We've been playing it exclusively for a couple years now. And at $10 for the full core rules, how can you go wrong?

Hmmm... I saw the Savage Worlds Revised PDF at rpgnow.com for $19.95, but nothing for $10. Did I miss something?

I am not sure if the change from zillions of spells slinging about to one with 10 powers is an issue, but who knows. I should run it by my players.
 

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