selling 3.5

[WayneLigon]

One has never played D&D before, and he and another player have never gamed in a campaign that uses magic.

Wow, that is pretty weird. WFRP uses magic, so they have played in a system that uses it. Or did they not play in that campaign. Or you mean, they just don't play magic using characters? I literally cannot think of more than a couple things they ever could have played and not been in a campaign that used magic.

Really, I'd just say 'None of you are willing to run, and I am; let's try 3.5.' Help them through character creation, keeping their choices simple and clear cut. Shoot, if you decide to use point buy just have them describe a class and what they want in the way of stats... and you build their characters to hand out to them the first night. Do a couple combats and gradually ramp up some of the extra rules (OK, in this encounter I'm going to show you how sneak attacks work).

Don't bother trying to simulate or convert Al-Quadim. Really, most of the class/magic changes weren't all that great and virtually everything else is still the same as the rest of AD&D. The desert environment stuff you can get from other sources, or use common sense and wing it. The stuff in the DMG should be enough for that.

The cool thing about Al-Quadim is the setting. If you want a far better Arabian Knights themed sourcebook, look at Tales of the Caliphate Nights. It gives you a ton more setting info than Al-Quadim ever did, so use it for background info and adventure seeds, the Al-Quadim maps, and maybe a few tweaks to classes... and you're ready to go.

 

[Odysseus]

There are a number of different problems here.
The first is your rotating the DM. With my current group the players who don't know 3.5 , don't worry about what rules they play they just ask the DM. So ithink to sell 3.5 you may have to stay as DM for a while.
Second. Multi system players frequently complain about systems but still play them, and have quite enjoyable games. What you need to find out , is what the players cannot stand playing. What was it about the HARP that caused two to leave?
Third . Don't get locked into D&D. There are other D20 fantasy systems that may be better suited to what you want.

 

[Psion]

But here's the rub - how do you sell 3.5 to such a diverse group of experienced gamers? One has never played D&D before, and he and another player have never gamed in a campaign that uses magic. I think only myself and another player have played in 3.5. I may be the only one who owns any 3.5 books.

So why bother? Why not just play 2E? As much as I love 2E, I think 3.5 is better and easier to customize, which is what our group is really all about. Playing WFRP makes me long for the vast range of character options 3.5 gives players, as well as the better tactical combat rules and, of course, the magic system (if you ever want to see a horrible broken magic system, check out WFRP).

So how would you pitch 3.5?

If it really is a diverse group of players, the best you can do, I think, is to run a few games of it and see what they like. Perhaps if they won't commit to it full time, you can convince them to rotate and sell them the game on its own merits (that's what happened to me... when 3e came out, I was going to stick with my heavily modded 2e house rules, but I tried a 3e side game and got hooked.)

You can also make a laundry list of what changes between 2e and 3e you feel are helpful to your gaming experience. That's the sort of thing that those committed to their games will turn their nose up at, but more receptive players will listen to. If you have your "talking points" ready ahead of time, though, you might end up swaying a player or two, and that might be enough to tip the balance.

If they are still recalcitrant, you could recommend they try for a game or two. Show up with pre-generated characters in your folder, so if they question what to do ever comes up, you can let them try the game quickly.

In the vein of Al Quadim, having in-place support is somewhat compelling point for 2e, but you can point out products that do support that style of game, like Sandstorm, Desert Heroes, Dry Lands: Empire of the Dragon Sands, etc.

 

[RFisher]

For me & my groups there has been only one answer: Let the current referee choose the system. Sure, it means that you may seldom get to play a PC under the system you'd most like to play a PC under. Sure, it means the rotating refs in a single campaign option is mostly out. But a group has to make compromises. That's the compromise that I've seen work best for the past c. 25 years. YMMV.

In other words, the best way to sell D&D 3.5 is to say, "I'll DM!" (^_^)

 

[arscott]

The only solution to your D&D dilemma that I can think of is Castles and Crusades. It is made to allow you to use every edition of D&D, even at the same time.

But the reason the OP wants to play 3.5 is for the customizability and tactical complexity, both of which C&C sacrifice. If he wanted something that was just 1e with easier math, then C&C might be his thing, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

 

[Drawmack]

When 3e came out I was playing in a heavily entrenched 2e group. We have been running a 2e Ravenloft campaign for about 2 years. We all hated 3e, without ever reading it, and said a lot of negative things, that now seem sily, about 3e. One of the players got a new job and asked if he could bring a guy from work to play.

None of us knew this at the time, but the whole thing was a setup to move the group to 3e engineered by this one player. The guy, John, came and started playing along side us for a couple months. Then one week he says, how about if I run a tillogy of adventures I wrote for you guys?

Our current DM could use the break so we said sure. He asked us what kind of characters we wanted to play just class and race. Then the next week he shows up, without any books, carrying character sheets for each of us. Once we saw that the basic rules of 3e were so simple and used a single task resolution system for everything we were hooked.

The adventures were a 5th, 10th, and 15th level adventur. So we really got a good look at the system. It had been no looking back for everyone in the gorup ever since.

 

[GQuail]

Ultimately, if you want to play in the ideal game for you.... there's only one person that can run it. Trying to force other GMs to try out settings and rules just for your benefit just never works out IMHO: for one thing, running a system/setting with a player who starts off with way more knowledge than the GM can be real off-putting to some people.

The best way to "sell" them on 3.5 is to run a one-off or a couple of sessions and show how it works. Pre-gen some characters, knock together a simple adventure (or get one from online or Dungeon) and show them the system in action. If they don't want to even try it, well, there's little you can do to fix that; if they do and don't like it, then that's fair enough, and there's littel point in forcing them to indulge in more for your sake. But just saying "I wanna run something" and letting them decide when ought to work.

If you've recently been playing WFRP, I'd advise designing it to show up the differences between D&D 3.5 and WFRP: consider the differences in the magic systems, in combat's lethalness and in the sort of enemies faced, and play up to those. The more obvious it is that it's totally different, the less likely you';ll feel compettiion from the previous game.