[semi-Rant] As a DM, does item creation ever get you down?

[Chubtoad]

The only problem I have with this is when you get to higher levels. Like my +5 axe. That is a 50,000gp item. At level 15 that is not really absorb to have. But by your standards that would be a DC 60!! That puts an non-epic item up into epic levels!

"Epic Level - the game term" is not really a problem in Kid C's world. His world of Crystalmarch leans more towards the lower end of the magic spectrum.
We are 12th level (in an epic style campaign) and none of us have wepons above +2.

This goes along with Kid C's philosophy that a character is defined by his character and story not his stuff.

High magic Faerun style can be fun- but I have enjoyed the style of Kid C and Crystalmarch over the past 10 years.
/suck up

 

[Epametheus]

The item creation rules are handy. We've never sweated it in my group; there's almost always at least one PC with item creation feats, and we pretty much just require being in a bustling city when making an item so that the necessary materials can be required.

Just about anything worth more than 4000 GP needs to be built from scratch, though, and can't be bought on the market. Getting cool stuff usually requires waiting a month or more for the thing to get made. We've made it really bad with Rings, since it requires a 12th level caster just to take the feat. I believe our current time-delay record for commisioning an item and actually getting it is 6 months of game time (the item only cost 15K, too).

As for inventing new items... When in doubt, say no?

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

"Epic Level - the game term" is not really a problem in Kid C's world. His world of Crystalmarch leans more towards the lower end of the magic spectrum.
We are 12th level (in an epic style campaign) and none of us have wepons above +2.

This goes along with Kid C's philosophy that a character is defined by his character and story not his stuff.

High magic Faerun style can be fun- but I have enjoyed the style of Kid C and Crystalmarch over the past 10 years.
/suck up

Sucking up duly noted...

That said, my interest was creating a system that could scale up with party power - I may not always run the lower level game. In an epic game, a skilled "finder" of magic items could probably find a Vorpal Blade for sale in a matter of days.

It may well be from some unfriendly demon on a particularly nasty level of the Abyss, but as an epic level character, he'd potentially move in circles like that. Or have contacts who do.

I will point out that although no PC in my game may have an item of over +2 bonus, several weapons in the group are of a +4 to +6 TOTAL value bonus... Maybe a little more in one case.

 

[LostSoul]

Too many players feel that anything that's in the core rules is their divine birthright, and yanking it means that you're screwing them over...

Well, if you still plan to use the CR and EL tables for experience and deciding what an appropriate challenge is, you are screwing them over. I mean, if you took away the Power Attack chain of Feats, would you still think that you're not screwing the Players over? If so, why not with the Item Creation Feats?

Giving magic the right "feeling" doesn't have anything to do with rules. It comes down to what you do with them. If anything, I think having PCs create magic items gives them more flavour, because then it's something the PC made himself.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

Giving magic the right "feeling" doesn't have anything to do with rules.

I see it the other way, however. Nothing stinks worse than trying to explain "flavor" reasons for a limitation when the counter-argument is the rules "as written". Indeed, while a sizable degree of flavor is possible with the rules as-written, these rules are also contrary to a multitude of other possible flavors (and seemingly these other possibilities are preferred by more than a few).

It comes down to what you do with them. If anything, I think having PCs create magic items gives them more flavour, because then it's something the PC made himself.

I'd be inclined to agree; However, you also point to the obvious. As the rest of mmu1's post stated...

The current rules really help to cheapen magic items, and make them repetitive and boring. Instead of "hmm, interesting, I would have never had this made, but let's see what I can do with it" you bascially end up with people flipping through the DMG magic item section like it was a store catalogue, and trying to get the same efficient and boring junk every time...

...it is what is being done with them that is the problem, because this is the "feeling" that the rules present without the DM and/or Players deciding otherwise. When a DM and the Players in his group have similar desires for more flavor, than more flavor is easily put into the mix. However, as mmu1 states, some do indeed feel it's their "divine right", often labeling a good (hell, even great!) DM as being a bad DM for this simple fact alone regardless of any other qualities he/she may have at the task.

By the same merit, however...

Well, if you still plan to use the CR and EL tables for experience and deciding what an appropriate challenge is, you are screwing them over.

This I agree with completely. Obviously, however, I'm not using them (and, appearantly, niether are many others). At the very least, I've found these tables are generally off (for my purposes) from the 5th-15th Level range, as they assume a natural confused: ) progression of items from minor to major. I'm more inclined to with-hold the majority of magic items until hitting the Upper Level range (12+ by my measure), and then bring in the heavy-hitters (or grant the PCs the required knowledge necessary to "unlock" or "awaken" the potent items they've been lugging around for since the Lower Levels). Once that happens, the tables fall into line (or, as I often say, "fix themselves" ).

Jus' me two coppers.

 

[mmu1]

Well, if you still plan to use the CR and EL tables for experience and deciding what an appropriate challenge is, you are screwing them over. I mean, if you took away the Power Attack chain of Feats, would you still think that you're not screwing the Players over? If so, why not with the Item Creation Feats?

This is exactly the kind of thinking I'm talking about. What exactly is it that I'd be screwing my players out of? XP? An "appropriate" challenge? Gold pieces? Hard-earned hit points?

The fact that a lot of people allow all those things to be measures of their enjoyment of the game is the whole problem.

And why would any sane person use CR? Neither lulling the players to sleep nor slaughtering them are my goals when I DM.

 

[LostSoul]

This is exactly the kind of thinking I'm talking about. What exactly is it that I'd be screwing my players out of? XP? An "appropriate" challenge? Gold pieces? Hard-earned hit points?

Options. You're also making their characters weaker because they can't tailor equipment for their characters.

 

[LostSoul]

I see it the other way, however. Nothing stinks worse than trying to explain "flavor" reasons for a limitation when the counter-argument is the rules "as written".

You're right. I concede.

When a DM and the Players in his group have similar desires for more flavor, than more flavor is easily put into the mix. However, as mmu1 states, some do indeed feel it's their "divine right", often labeling a good (hell, even great!) DM as being a bad DM for this simple fact alone regardless of any other qualities he/she may have at the task.

I understand. I think that all groups should sit down and decide how they're going to handle it. If the group does decide to remove the Item Creation Feats from the game, the DM should take into consideration that the CR and EL charts and tables will not reflect the group (not that it ever really does).

 

[S'mon]

I let my PCs get items made for them, but I do this in the game sessions; no way am I going to wear myself out answering emails about this! Also I have no problem charging them x2 or x4 the listed DMG price. To get book price they need a special relation with the item creator.

Conversely, they can often sell items for DMG price, with a bit of effort. If you could only sell items for 1/2 book price, no one would make items, since it costs that much just to make them! And it makes no sense that a PC mage can make and sell a random item for full price, yet if he'd found it he could only sell it for 1/2 price.

 

[Wormwood]

However, as mmu1 states, some do indeed feel it's their "divine right", often labeling a good (hell, even great!) DM as being a bad DM for this simple fact alone regardless of any other qualities he/she may have at the task.

I would submit that any DM who insists on running a game in opposition to the desires of his players *is* a bad DM.