(semi-Tolkien) A question concerning a nation of long-lived people

[Edena_of_Neith]

Ah yes, longevity.
Wizards can obtain it with Potions, and Ioulaum's Longevity made one nearly Immortal.
Undeath is a kind of longevity (albeit with drawbacks one could do without.)

Longevity is the stuff of many stories, and of many dreams.

In Tolkien's history, the Numenorians had great longevity, as a reward to them for their stand, alongside the Noldor and Sindar, against Morgoth.

Now, I have a question relating to this.

Let us say that all the people of a nation are human (and, importantly, they act like ordinary humans, which the Numenorians did not - which is to say, they have children at the age of 15 to 20, and they have lots of children, and they treat their children poorly, and they brutalize and tyrannize everyone around them, etc., etc. ad nauseum.)

Now, let us say these humans live to the age of 250 to 300.

Then, let us say these humans have just founded a nation.
That is, all the land around for 400 miles is relatively unpopulated, fertile, and easily taken - beyond that, other peoples dwell in force and the land is not so easily taken.

This was roughly the situation in Gondor after the Last Alliance threw down Sauron.
It could also be any nation, for this theoretical question.

The question is this:

What happens in the first 300 years of the nation?
How does family structure grow and evolve, as children have grandchildren, and they have great grandchildren, while the original people are still young and healthy. And yet more generations appear, until 10 generations of successive children are alive and kicking.
How does social structure evolve?
What kind of laws evolve?
What kind of society is most likely to evolve?

We are talking about a medieval world here, not a renaissance world (or a world with any hope of the renaissance coming into being any time or century soon.)

How does the King cope with 10 generations of successors, each of them desiring power and perhaps the throne, and perhaps unwilling to wait another 300 years to get either?
How do the Noble Families cope?
How do the Common People adapt?

In Tolkien's world, they adapted very well, very quietly, having only a few children (if any at all), and then only towards the very end of their lives.

What if these people acted like your regular Europeans?
A child every year or two (half of them even managing to stay alive past the age of 5!), along with all the ugly feudalistic politics and mess that the medieval Europeans created.

Gondor lasted for 3000 years until Frodo came along.

But in this case, how does Gondor, or any other nation, last past it's first 300 years?
How do they cope with a world where your great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, grandfather and grandmother are alive and well, youthful and vigorous, along with all the generations between them and you?

I do not mention elves (until now) because elves have only a few children in their long lives, as a natural part of being elven ... in other words, the human family is extended - in effect - through many hundreds of years of time.
This question is not about elves, but about long-living humans.

How would they cope? How would their nation cope?
How would it grow, evolve, and flourish, under these conditions?

 

[Mark]

Perhaps in exchange for long life, they succomb to a two and a half century gestation period...

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Gestation?

 

[Hand of Vecna]

Gestation -- period from conecption to birth. In humans, it lasts about 9 months.

 

[Heap Thaumaturgist]

Normal humans with greatly extended lives would take over the entire planet in short order and then populate themselves into a war of extinction shortly thereafter.

I mean ... what do you want? You can't really change only -one- variable in the equation of life and expect nothing else to change.

People who lived for 500-1000 years would have a social structure nothing like normal humans, also in short order. When you -know- you're going to live for five hundred years ... what possible reason is there for you to boink out a kid every year and a half? What reason is there for normal human relationships or marriage structures? Would you really want to have a hundred kids if you had to keep raising the little brats? What joy is there watching yet another progeny grow when you could be doing -anything- with your greatly extended lifetime?

Our productive life spans are really rather short ... today's productive span is what, about 40 years or so? And you extend it by ten times or more? Ten career lifetimes.

Ignorance, poverty, the vast uselessness of humanity would become obsolete. The ignorant would remain ignorant, those who wish to learn would have decades and decades to do so ... to plot, to plan, to manipulate societal structures to their own device, to create new ideas that lead to the death of the ignorant. Ignorance and breeding is powerful, but really only in a short-term society. As we create longer lifespans, you'll notice that less and less power is placed with the few who have greater physical strength. Harsh oppressive systems tend to come to an end ... at least harsh, oppressive systems the way they functioned in the middle ages ... instead you have oppressive systems like capitalism, that functions on knowledge base and manipulation of underlying cultural structures as opposed to fear and terror. If you attempted to terrorize a people that had 500 years to hang out and think about ways to get out from under it, you'd have a few uprisings that would get farther and farther apart, better and better planned, more and more complete until they succeeded.

I'd say, then, that a country like that wouldn't survive the first 300 years. Within two or three generations the old guard would be done away with and new structures would begin forming. I'm not saying that a longer life would lead to a grand peaceful eutopia, but you wouldn't have a medieval structure full of people that live 500 years. Those structures existed at a time in which people were lucky to live to 40. These people would expand until they came into conflict with surrounding peoples, and then would no doubt stop. And, I'd imagine, instead of taking the brute strength route that 25 years of productive life leaves you, they would stop, step back for about 200 years to think about the problem from every possible angle, and then do something about it ... be it somehow encorporate their neighbors into a new, larger governmental and societal structure, or war.

No doubt after about 10 generations and having the time to hang out and contemplate the reasons and reactions for their problems, these people would also find a correlation between overpopulation of a long-lived people and suffering caused by lack of room and resources.

All signs I've seen or heard about point to a culture undergoing a change if the lifespan suddenly increases, especially to extreme proportions like that.

--HT

 

[Enkhidu]

Ever hear of "Cabin Fever?"

What you describe would quickly - within about 200 years - develop into an untenable situation, with only 2 means of releasing the societal pressures - expansion or population control.

On the expansion side, you would have a long lived nation using any and every means necessary to widen their territory. It would most likely be considered very enlightened in its rule by the nations citizens, but that would most likely be because of the lack of formal government on the outskirt - think Western USA from 1850-1900. As long as territiory was available for a frontier - even if it is already populated by another people - pressure would be relieved.

But if they could not expand...

Overpopulation would run rampant, and lack of resources - food, space, etc - would eventually create an environment where a nation's people began killing themselves off, until they reached an equilibrium with the available resources. Overcrowded populations of rodents - notably rats - have shown tendencies to "self destruct" if overcrowded, killing one another for what may seem no reason. Lemmings go so far as to commit mass suicide when populations get too large.

So...

Assuming that the long lived people in control stayed in control - a very likely possibility - I suggest that some sage would eventually recognize the trend and some one would get the bright idea to artificially control population levels. Since you've already stated that people will continue to reproduce at the normal human rate, I figure that those in power would probably be forced to commit murder on a fairly grand scale just to maintain control of the situation.

This might take the form of mass religious matyrdom against a foreign power, or sacrifice of the frstborn male, or extermination of one or more ethnic groups. No matter what, it would be messy, and would definitely be evil in D&D terms (not to mention the real world - I know I would place them all firmly in that catagory).

Hmmm, maybe that's why the quick breeding Orcs and Goblins behave the way they do?

 

[DerianCypher]

Well, if this society would survive it would advance technologically at a highly accelerated rate.

Think about it: one brilliant scientist would live for a very long time and continue to experiment and learn and would spread knowledge is his/her field. Today's Science is limited in the fact that we continue to have to re-educate the peoples. Think about a group of scientists (say a few thousand) that never died and never had to stop experimenting.

Now add to the fact that this group of scientists would continue to grow.

Then again, this is all based on the stipiulation that the human mind can retain all this information.

Maybe I'm making sense, it's late and I'm tired.

just my 2cp

DC

 

[Jack Haggerty]

You should read Heinlein's stories concerning "Methusela's Children"...

These were a group of extremely long-lived (centuries life spans) humans who were the product of planned a breeding plan to produce long-lived humans.

They spent most their time in hiding, constantly changing their identities. The rest of the normal humans, you see, desperately wanted to know the secret of their "fountain of youth". And when the Methuselas told them the truth, that it all breeding, that there was no instant youth device, no one believed them. Animosity, resentment and outright persecution followed. The Methuselas were forced to flee Earth for their lives.

Now, think about a new kingdom of humans who live to the age of 300 or so, surrounded by kingdoms of normal humans. After about 30 or 40 years, all the surrounding kings notice that they are growing old, while their new neighbors are not.

The surrounding kings now want one of two things... 1. To live forever like the new guys, or 2. To stop the new guys from living forever. (If I can't have the advantage, they shouldn't either) The quickest solution to either problem, of course, is to invade the new kingdom and discover their secret, or destroy them trying. Suddenly, the new kingdom finds itself beset upon all sides by enemies.

In all likelyhood, if the long-lived humans were participants in the nasty Medieval European-eqsue politics you suggest, I'd predict that they'd be conquered and or destroyed by their cumulative neighbors within a (normal) generation. Hence, over-population would not be a problem.

If you want such a civilation to survive, they have to quickly develop an entirely different cultural approach. If they don't, they will soon be destroyed by their nieghbors or themselves.

 

[Tonguez]

Infanticide was commonly practiced amongst the nobility of ancient Tahiti and it even rose to religious practice amongst the Arioi (think CN Cleric-Bard of a sex god).

I'd say a similar situation would occur in your scenario. The long lived would become a libertine 'royal priesthood' practicing infanticide and maintaining power over surrounding nations by a claimed 'Divine Right' (which is obviouslty true as they are immortal (at least in the eyes of a normal person who lives amere 40 yrs))

The other area of 'evidence' we have (if your beleive system is so inclined) is the Bibles Book of Genesis. In the Antedilluvian world of the Bible humans apparently had extremely long lifespans (we also had the Nephilim who were 'super-human') anyway to cut the story short these people were libertine and hedonistic and were eventually destroyed because of their 'great iniquity' - interpret that as you wish but it maywell be a logical outcome to your scenario

 

[Jack Haggerty]

Also, be aware that long-lived people will have that much more to lose from unnatural deaths... Who is more afraid of death, an 80 year old man who has 5 years left to live, or an 80 year old man who has 200 years left to live?

These are a people who would avoid wars at all cost, avoid disease at all cost, avoid any sort of danger or risk at all for fear of a premature death.