Sense Motive - passive or active?

[Quasqueton]

So I'm not convinced that roleplaying characters down to their lack of skill is always role-playing appropriately. It's entirely possible that my hypothetical barbarian could have one of his shining moments of persuasiveness that justifies the articulate speech I gave him. (Natural 20,--wohoo! my diplomacy is a 19).

And I could try to give that same speech, yet as a Real Life Player, I am not very skilled verbally. In the role play of the speech, I'd fumble, "um" and "ah", and maybe at least get across the concept I wanted, but without the flourish and style that the barbarian's Player could act out. But if I rolled that natural 20, my paladin would get a 31 Diplomacy. I would hope the DM wouldn't penalize the result because I as a Player was not eloquent and charismatic.

Quasqueton

 

[S'mon]

NB I almost (edit: "almost always" I meant) treat skills as boosts/additional abioities to the player's own roleplay abilities & I'd almost never say "You can't say X! You're not charismatic enough!"

 

[IceBear]

I would hope the DM wouldn't penalize the result because I as a Player was not eloquent and charismatic.

Quasqueton

I would only take what you said, not how you said it, into account. But that's just me

 

[S'mon]

However, the player cannot decide whether an NPC is lying or not. That's where the Sense Motive skill is used instead of the player's judgement. Because without a skill roll (or the DM telling the player instead of a skill roll), it's impossible for the player to derive any information of this kind.

That's not true - I, as player, can often tell if an NPC is lying. If I'm unsure I request an SM check. If I don't suspect they're lying I don't request check.

 

[IceBear]

NB I almost treat skills as boosts/additional abioities to the player's own roleplay abilities & I'd almost never say "You can't say X! You're not charismatic enough!"

God no!!! I try never to say CAN'T to a player

 

[S'mon]

Why prevent someone socially challenged to play a highly charismatic bard? not playing by the RAW remove you that option and it is very sad. Also why charismatic player have an edge on less charismatic player around the table This is completly unfair.

Life, y'know, is unfair, and all that. Men are created unequal, we have unequal rights, some of us don't get life , liberty or even much chance to pursue happiness.

 

[IceBear]

Life, y'know, is unfair, and all that. Men are created unequal, we have unequal rights, some of us don't get life , liberty or even much chance to pursue happiness.

While life is unfair, I have to disagree with your philosophy here. This is a game with rules that are supposed to be balanced. I consider social skills to be part of the game rules, and to be as balanced as the character classes.

Again, just my look on it. I'm not saying yours is wrong.

 

[Quasqueton]

Well, that answer right there turns me off to reading anything else you say. "Life's unfair, so my game can be unfair to the Players."

You've shut down the conversation with that.

Quasqueton

 

[Thanee]

That's not true - I, as player, can often tell if an NPC is lying. If I'm unsure I request an SM check. If I don't suspect they're lying I don't request check.

Sorry, that was a bit unclear above.

I was really only speaking of situations, where you don't have any knowledge about what is being presented to you. Probably those situations, where you would not request a check at all.

There simply is no way to tell, if an NPC is lying, unless the DM deliberately places hints for you.

All I'm saying is, that those hints (or sometimes in a more direct way, as appropriate to the situation) could be based on the Bluff vs Sense Motive check done in advance, which would then include the character's ability to spot flaws in the NPC's behaviour.

Bye
Thanee

 

[S'mon]

I guess I wasn't very clear about that point as both of you tagged it. What my understanding of SB's group is they tend to let the player's social skill determine if they are successful or not, not the dice, because their players are good at staying within the limits of their character. This quote of mine was a nod of appreciation to their group.

I guess we use dice & stats as an aid. Sometimes roleplay counts more, sometimes dice. It depends on the circumstances. My PC in SB's Midnight game has Intimidate +9 and Diplomacy +1. IRL my Intimidate is much lower and my Diplomacy might be slightly higher, but I love roleplaying her Dirty Harry "Are you feeling lucky, Legate?" moments. - I may not be as cool as Zana Than (or Harry) but I have great fun trying! Being awkward & uncertain when using non-threatening Diplomacy is much easier of course, and still fun, I just go to different aspects of my personality and play from there, it seems to come out alright.