Sense Motive vs Bluff

[anest1s]

Ok, let me make it simpler:

Player: Are you the assassin?
Innkeeper: No.
(DM rolls sense motive for the player, and bluff for the innkeeper)
DM: You feel he is hiding something.
Player: Ok, you are under arrest.

 

[Greenfield]

Sorry for the harshness.

The implicit denial inherent in the "What are you talking about?" is an attempt at evasion, and thus subject to Sense Motive.

Again, I'll emphasize: Sense Motive does exactly that: It senses the motive of the person you're dealing with. Not the literal accuracy of the words, but more the care taken in selecting those words, and why they're being said that particular way.

So it doesn't matter whether the bartender is making an untrue statement, or even no statement at all. You can use Sense Motive to, well, sense what his motivations are. And they can come through even when the man is telling a "technical truth".

 

[Dozen]

I think Greenfield's last post summed it up neatly. Point considered proven.


Ansest1s, in this latter scenario, yes, there is a Bluff check involved, and thus rolling an opposed Sense Motive is a valid answer.

 

[Greenfield]

Thanks, and sorry for the intensity. I tend to snark, and that's not a good habit on the more polite forums.

 

[anest1s]

I think Greenfield's last post summed it up neatly. Point considered proven.


Ansest1s, in this latter scenario, yes, there is a Bluff check involved, and thus rolling an opposed Sense Motive is a valid answer.

The thing is:

-If the player wins the check, he knows that the enemy lies.
-If the player fails the check, he can't get a false feeling that the enemy is lying.

Thus, any NPC with less than +19 ranks in bluff is detectable by a party without ranks on sense motive at all.

 

[Dozen]

Please. It's hard to act like grownups all the time. And damn unnecessary!

 

[Greenfield]

Please. It's hard to act like grownups all the time. And damn unnecessary!

Are you calling me a grown up? Am not! Am not! Am not! You take that back!

 

[Dozen]

The thing is:

-If the player wins the check, he knows that the enemy lies.
-If the player fails the check, he can't get a false feeling that the enemy is lying.

Thus, any NPC with less than +19 ranks in bluff is detectable by a party without ranks on sense motive at all.

Uhh. No. There are so many things wrong with this assumption I don't even know where to start opposing it. Maybe you could elaborate on your reasoning?

 

[anest1s]

Uhh. No. There are so many things wrong with this assumption I don't even know where to start opposing it. Maybe you could elaborate on your reasoning?

If I am a player, and my DM says "You feel like he is hiding something" then I know I just rolled a sense motive higher than his bluff check. Right?

This means that there was a bluff check.

So I know he was bluffing.

 

[Greenfield]

I get what he's saying, even if he isn't saying it very well.

His complaint is that the skill tells you if someone is trying to hide something, or it tells you nothing.

He sees this as a success=knowledge/failure=ignorance issue. There's no way to ever misread someone in any positive sense. You never get "good" feelings, only a lack of bad ones, and you never get a false read, just the lack of a read at all.

And I think this can be handled by a bit of DM planning.

You're checking out the bar, looking for a particular fence. The bartender comes across as secretive, as if he's hiding something, and is actively nervous when you question him.

In a a one-track world, you could assume that he's the fence, or is working with him. Maybe he's just guilty of watering the drinks. Maybe he's just nervous because of the trouble you could cause for him by even asking such questions. He might not know of the fence in question, or of any fence for that matter, but he knows what will happen to him and his business if he's seen answering any questions for a Paladin.

You see what I mean? If the fence (or the Assassin, if you choose) is the only thing going on in the world, then an evasive answer or nervous manner tells you that he's involved. In a more complex world, all you'll pick up is that he's a shady character, not to be trusted.

In short, a false read.

A good DM could set various thresholds for the Sense Motive DC to detect not only the fact that he's nervous and evasive, but what specific points or questions are making him nervous or evasive. And there you get you "wrong answer if the DC is missed by 5 or more" result, all within the rules as written.