Sense Motive

[Menexenus]

In a recent thread (can't remember which) I recall reading that many people abuse the Sense Motive skill by turning it into a lie detector. My group is guilty of this abuse, and I want us to change. But I'm so used to the lie-detector version of Sense Motive that I can't even think of what a proper use of the skill would be.

So here's the situation. The players meet an NPC in a dungeon who tells them that the princess is locked up in the next room. The players say they want to roll Sense Motive. (Is it fair for all the players to get a roll against the one NPC? See my other thread on the topic of Multiple Opposed Skill Checks.)
How should the DM respond in the following 4 situations:
-the players beat the NPC's Bluff roll, but the NPC is telling the truth.
-the players beat the NPC's Bluff roll, but the NPC is lying.
-the players don't beat the NPC's Bluff roll, but the NPC is telling the truth.
-the players don't beat the NPC's Bluff roll, but the NPC is lying.
(Here's another question: if the NPC is telling the truth, does it even make sense for the NPC to make a Bluff roll?)

I'm a long-time player but a new DM. I'm trying to get a feel for how to adjudicate skill rolls, and I don't feel like I've got the knack of it yet. Any help you can provide on this issue would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance!

 

[welby]

Our group does some "prerolls" before the game starts each week, and the DM keeps track of them behind the screen. It's perfect for avoiding the lie-detector problem. The DM can answer "you think he's lying/telling the truth" but because you dont' know you rolled high/low, you don't know for sure. As a player, you can only assume your character thinks he sensed motive correctly.

 

[Artoomis]

...
How should the DM respond in the following 4 situations:
-[1]the players beat the NPC's Bluff roll, but the NPC is telling the truth.
-[2]the players beat the NPC's Bluff roll, but the NPC is lying.
-[3]the players don't beat the NPC's Bluff roll, but the NPC is telling the truth.
-[4]the players don't beat the NPC's Bluff roll, but the NPC is lying.
[5](Here's another question: if the NPC is telling the truth, does it even make sense for the NPC to make a Bluff roll?)...

[1] There is no Bluff check to beat, so now way to confirm the truth. DM rolls the check and states somethings like "you do not detect any deception."
[2] DM rolls check and states something like,"he's lying."
[3] There is no Bluff check to beat, so now way to confirm the truth. DM rolls the check and states somethings like "you do not detect any deception."
[4] DM rolls the check and states somethings like "you do not detect any deception."
[5] Nope - no Bluff roll for the NPC.

Note that the DM should make all Sense Motive rolls. Always.

 

[Menexenus]

[2] DM rolls check and states something like,"he's lying."

But the whole premise of my question is that the Sense Motive skill is not supposed to be used as a lie detector. (That's the way my group has used it in the past, but it was recently called to my attention in another thread that that's not the way the skill was intended to be used.)

What I'm asking for is how am I *supposed* to respond as a DM if Sense Motive is *not* just a lie detector skill.

 

[Artoomis]

But the whole premise of my question is that the Sense Motive skill is not supposed to be used as a lie detector. (That's the way my group has used it in the past, but it was recently called to my attention in another thread that that's not the way the skill was intended to be used.)

What I'm asking for is how am I *supposed* to respond as a DM if Sense Motive is *not* just a lie detector skill.

Sorry, but the way the skill is written, it is indeed a "lie detector," sort of. The "sort of" part is that it only let's you know when you've detected a lie. It does not let you know when you've failed to detect a lie, thus has value, but not the same as, for example, Detect Lie which will either detect all lies from someone or one (saving throw made), and is thus more valuable. It's MOST IMPORTANT that you, as DM make ALL the Sense Motive rolls, or else the PCs will have a quite reliable lie detector since they'll know when they've failed to detect a lie.

Good luck!!

 

[Scion]

I dont understand. If bluff is a skill to lie, and sense motive is a skill to be able to figure out they are lieing, then how is it a missuse to be able to see through the bluff? It doesnt tell you what the truth is though, simply that they are being decietful.

That is just how it works, what else should it be doing?

 

[nameless]

The way I run it, Sense Motive is sometimes a lie detector.

In some cases, an NPC will directly lie in some statement. ("Did you see who stabbed Joe?" "No.") Depending on the situation, I think it's fair to say that a sense motive check will arouse suspicion. With any decent bluff check, it won't be obvious that he's lying outright, but it will be obvious that he's being evasive.

In other cases, a NPC might say something that doesn't necessarily make sense in the context that it's said. ("I'll pay you 1,000 gold pieces each to bring my grandmother here from the next village for my birthday party.") A sense motive check can show if someone is doing something with an ulterior motive, instead of legitimate business. In the example I just used, any number of things are possible, maybe the grandmother is a disguised fiend, maybe her village is taken hostage by drow, or maybe the guy offering the money simply won't pay... or maybe he just really, really wants his grandmother safe and sound for his birthday.

Basically, being a lie detector is a matter of inductive reasoning. If somebody's been killed and eaten, and you're asking the cannibalistic orc who blew in 3 days ago if he did it, anything fishy probably means he did. Asking Steve the town drunk if he did it, and getting a suspicious reading probably doesn't mean that he did it, but there's a good chance he knows something.

On the flip side, sense motive should be able to pick up on clues that the PCs aren't specifically looking for. If they go to the sheriff (secretly a lycanthrope) and ask about the murder, with no suspicion on the sheriff's part, they might suddenly become suspicious.

The way I play it, you might say that Sense Motive is body reading. It can set off the sense of "something's not right" which might unequivocally mean that someone is lying, or might just mean that someone is nervous and having a rough day.

 

[Thanee]

About multiple opposed checks, you can only let the player with the highest skill roll, maybe assign a small bonus for "aid another".

Bye
Thanee

 

[bweenie]

I'm so used to the lie-detector version of Sense Motive that I can't even think of what a proper use of the skill would be.

So here's the situation. The players meet an NPC in a dungeon who tells them that the princess is locked up in the next room. The players say they want to roll Sense Motive. (Is it fair for all the players to get a roll against the one NPC? See my other thread on the topic of Multiple Opposed Skill Checks.)
How should the DM respond in the following 4 situations:
1) the players beat the NPC's Bluff roll, but the NPC is telling the truth.
2) the players beat the NPC's Bluff roll, but the NPC is lying.
3) the players don't beat the NPC's Bluff roll, but the NPC is telling the truth.
4) the players don't beat the NPC's Bluff roll, but the NPC is lying.
(Here's another question: if the NPC is telling the truth, does it even make sense for the NPC to make a Bluff roll?)

You're the DM, so whether or not the rules say Sense Motive is a lie detector, you don't have to use it as one. I would suggest turning the idea of the skill from a statement of a fact ('he's lying') into a perception ('you don't believe him'). The latter statement is an appropriate answer to situation 1) or 3).

As to your paranthetical question of whether or not an NPC should bluff when
he's not lying...no, but PC's making a Sense Motive check might be consider scrutinization of minute details that could lead to wild conclusions of someones motives...thus, let them roll, make your own roll, and if they don't beat your roll, make up some stories for them. That'll teach people to use dice as a lie detector...

 

[Scharlata]

[...] I can't even think of what a proper use of the skill would be.

Hi!

... and always remember that you ought to Sense Motive the statements of your PC on a regular basis, so that you may reverse the process you perceive as disturbing. The PCs of my group are checked everytime someone says something to a NPC that might arise MY suspicion. Sooner or later your PC neglect to abuse Sense Motive.

... and remember that Sense Motive requires a minimum of 1 minute of verbal interaction in a common language. Sometimes I look at my watch to discourage players who try to shortcut an "interview" with a NPC.

...and remember that you could always bind any PC that used to get an information from Sense Motive to your answer as a DM. My players are reminded that their PCs believe the outcome of the Sense Motive Check. If a PC got an answer like "You are convinced that the hunching and shabby looking woman is telling you the truth about the missing ferret familiar.", players learn fast not to ask too many unnecessary questions if they PC have to stick to the answers they get. I know that this should not be enforced to harrass players but to cut down abuse.

Kind regards