Sentinel Druids of Autumn & Winter

[Nemesis Destiny]

I'm starting a new campaign in less than 2 weeks and I have a player making a Sentinel Druid that wants to be a Druid of Autumn.

I'm sure I could come up with something, but I'd like some input. Does anyone know of good 3PP that will work here, or homebrew stuff that isn't OP?

I actually think this would be way easier if she wanted to play a Winter druid.

Anyway, the differences at 1st level between seasons seem to be defined by 3 things,

1) Their companion animal
2) A weapon bonus
3) A skill bonus

I've already asked the player what she wants, and she isn't sure. We've talked about animal types, and what is appropriate for Autumn. My first thought was 'Stag' (or similar - Elk, Moose, Reindeer, etc) followed by 'Raven' and a bunch of sillier ideas (Battle Turkey, Squirrel Swarm, etc.). Another player suggested a Fox.

The weapon part is easy. The design goal seems to be to bring the Druid's simple weapons up to the level of a Military weapon, or just outright granting them a military weapon. Autumn suggests flails, sickles and scythes, so giving them a bonus to hit with sickles and scythes, or boost to damage would work, and also granting them proficiency with flail to round it out.

Skill bonuses seem to be tied to useful skills but *not* something too good like, say, Nature. For Winter, my vote would go to Endurance, but Autumn? Not sure. Insight, probably. Neither Arcana, nor Diplomacy make sense, History is in the same boat, and Perception or Nature are too universally important to this class to just grant an untyped +2.

None of the Sentinel's other features are otherwise differentiated by season choice until Paragon, and this game won't be going that far, so I'm not concerned about that.

So the real trick is what animal to use, and what its Aura does. Attack damage is easier to figure out. It will probably hold the middle ground at 1d10+Wis+Con, or be really low if the creature has an otherwise fantastic ability like flight.

I've been thinking that perhaps a good attack for a smaller, more innocuous creature to have would be a warlord-like MBA or RBA enabler. This might be particularly good for a Raven or Squirrel. Their attack does no damage by itself, but it grants a basic attack to one ally and adds your Con mod to damage. Or not, because strikers exist.

Thoughts?

 

[Mentat55]

I like the idea of sickles, scythes, and flails, playing off the autumn harvest theme.

I could see this version of the sentinel going with a slightly more controller-ish theme. After all, the bear's aura is more defender-like, while the wolf's aura tends towards the leader or striker roles.

I like the idea of your fox (or whatever animal you choose) granting attacks, and perhaps an aura that improves forced movement against the targets, or inhibits shifting, or otherwise does something that impedes your target -- more clever than outright powerful.

Another theme you could focus on is the idea of autumn being a time of decay, as leaves dry up and fall off trees. A scavenging animal companion, like a vulture, raccoon, or jackal, might fit.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

Thanks for the input.

I like the idea of an inhibiting effect in the aura, like slowing enemies, prevent shifting, and the like.

On the theme of decay, perhaps a companion swarm (locusts? rats?) that does autodamage to enemies in the aura.

I'll keep brainstorming.

 

[ravenheart]

After reading your first post, I immediately thought of a swarm companion (as you did in your second post). Maybe a murder of crows? Seems fitting with autumns theme of harvest and decay.

I'd rule that the companion would get the standard swarm benefits and drawbacks. Since it would be a flying companion that can move through enemy spaces, I think it should have a lower damage die to compensate - 1d4 or 1d6 maybe.

About the aura: I think you could go with enemies treating the aura as a) difficult terrain, b) preventing shifting and/or c) preventing opportunity attacks. Or maybe just a flat -2 penalty to defenses while in it, although that seems a bit bland. Generally, I think you should avoid auto-damage (which easily becomes trivial at higher levels, except in the case of minions).

As for skills, I agree with Insight. And for the weapons I could see increased dice for sickle (d8) and scythe (2d6), and proficiency with flail and heavy flail.

Anyway, good stuff. How about Winter? Endurance seems like the perfect fit for skills. Weapons? Axes come to mind (cutting down trees for firewood, but that might be un-druidlike), or polearms. Or why not ranged weapons, short- and longbows (the biting winds of winter)? As for animal I'm not quite sure, some form of big cat (cougar, sabertooth) with a high speed and real nasty strikery mechanic?

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

Thanks for the suggestions and input, Ravenheart.

A murder of crows/ravens would be cool indeed. Perhaps the druid walks around with one on his shoulder, but when the fight is joined, he quickly brings his friends. I was definitely thinking along the same lines as you with regards to lower damage dice.

You're probably right about the auto-damage aura.

A simple damage die bump for sickles and scythes works well. I was thinking too complex by wanting to add high-crit or brutal 1, I think.

Yeah, for Winter, Endurance was my first thought, no doubt.

Winter's weapons, I was a little stuck. I see the angle for axes in both the ways that you do. I'd thought about bows, but the Druid has no powers to take advantage of them, and often terrible Dex for Sentinels, so the RBA would be awful. Unless part of the benefit was, "you can use your Wisdom in place of your Dexterity when making a Ranged Basic Attack."

Fox might work for winter as well, but I like the idea of a feline predator for winter, like a cougar, lynx, etc. If wolf hadn't already been used for Spring (?!?!) then it would have been an easy choice. I have no ideas for the aura though. That's the part where I'm stuck.

Maybe an aura that grants allies in it bonus damage when they hit? Bland, but appropriate, I suppose.

 

[ravenheart]

Thanks for the suggestions and input, Ravenheart.

No problem, glad I could help!

A murder of crows/ravens would be cool indeed. Perhaps the druid walks around with one on his shoulder, but when the fight is joined, he quickly brings his friends. I was definitely thinking along the same lines as you with regards to lower damage dice.

You're probably right about the auto-damage aura.

A simple damage die bump for sickles and scythes works well. I was thinking too complex by wanting to add high-crit or brutal 1, I think.

We really do think in similar patterns; my first thought after posting was to add a property to the associated weapons, high crit felt right for the scythe. I do agree about it adding complexity, but I would consider it as an alternative that differentiates the Autumn druid more from the other builds.

Yeah, for Winter, Endurance was my first thought, no doubt.

Winter's weapons, I was a little stuck. I see the angle for axes in both the ways that you do. I'd thought about bows, but the Druid has no powers to take advantage of them, and often terrible Dex for Sentinels, so the RBA would be awful. Unless part of the benefit was, "you can use your Wisdom in place of your Dexterity when making a Ranged Basic Attack."

That, or a couple of at-wills to choose from that can be used as ranged basics. The sentinel doesn't do well with melee basics either, so it might not be needed, as long as there are powers that can be used with a ranged weapon.

But having it as part of the benefit could work if the only other bonus were two weapon proficiencies. Also helps differentiate the builds.

EDIT: Or a clause saying that any druid attack power with the weapon keyword and a range of melee weapon can also be used at range. Simple.

Fox might work for winter as well, but I like the idea of a feline predator for winter, like a cougar, lynx, etc. If wolf hadn't already been used for Spring (?!?!) then it would have been an easy choice. I have no ideas for the aura though. That's the part where I'm stuck.

Maybe an aura that grants allies in it bonus damage when they hit? Bland, but appropriate, I suppose.

Yeah, wolf would have been sooooo much better if it were winter, can't really see the logic there.

I did think about something similar aswell, but that doesn't scale well and I'd personally avoid scaling issues if I were you. But looking back at the autumn druid and the other two seasons I can see a pattern forming - spring and summer aid your allies, while autumn and winter hamper your enemies. So maybe this could prevent opportunity attacks and shifting, while the autumn one causes difficult terrain and grants concealment to allies? Or is that too much? Tricky indeed.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

We really do think in similar patterns; my first thought after posting was to add a property to the associated weapons, high crit felt right for the scythe. I do agree about it adding complexity, but I would consider it as an alternative that differentiates the Autumn druid more from the other builds.

Yes, my reason for wanting to do it that way was for build differentiation.

That, or a couple of at-wills to choose from that can be used as ranged basics. The sentinel doesn't do well with melee basics either, so it might not be needed, as long as there are powers that can be used with a ranged weapon.

Unsurprisingly, I'd thought of that as well. I wanted to try and avoid that route, because I hoped to keep the houseruled elements that make this build work to a minimum.

Without that self-imposed limitation, I certainly would like to go this route.

EDIT: Or a clause saying that any druid attack power with the weapon keyword and a range of melee weapon can also be used at range. Simple.

Yeah, that's not bad, and I'd considered it, too, after deciding about not wanting to houserule lots of stuff.

Yeah, wolf would have been sooooo much better if it were winter, can't really see the logic there.

I'd probably re-do the seasons for the sentinel completely, if I thought it would be worth my time. Bear seems more spring than summer to me also.

I did think about something similar aswell, but that doesn't scale well and I'd personally avoid scaling issues if I were you. But looking back at the autumn druid and the other two seasons I can see a pattern forming - spring and summer aid your allies, while autumn and winter hamper your enemies. So maybe this could prevent opportunity attacks and shifting, while the autumn one causes difficult terrain and grants concealment to allies? Or is that too much? Tricky indeed.

You're probably right about the scaling issues. I'll avoid that, but I think I will stick to the idea that Spring & Summer buff allies, while Autumn & Winter debuff enemies.

I think I would associate the concealment/difficult terrain one more with Winter, myself (blowing snow and icy ground), and the can't shift/make OAs with Autumn.

Thanks again. Even just posting this stuff is helping me think it through, where I would otherwise have been stumped.

 

[ravenheart]

I think I would associate the concealment/difficult terrain one more with Winter, myself (blowing snow and icy ground), and the can't shift/make OAs with Autumn.

Yeah, I could see that as well. My reasoning was that a murder of crows would be quite difficult to traverse and see through, and a hunting cat would deny every attempt at tactical positioning or assault in its immediate vicinity.

The main issue here, IMHO, is inter-build balance, i.e. is it too much in comparison to the auras of the bear and the wolf? I do think a difficult terrain aura is quite powerful, as is a concealment (or lightly obscured) aura, and combining them both have the potential of surpassing the bears +2 to defences or the CA of the wolf. I do acknowledge that the balance of two companions is not solely based on their aura (the Bears bigger [W] makes up for some of its lacking features), but it is of concern none the less.

So I'd say go with an aura that enemies treat as difficult terrain (prevents shifting within the aura) for one of the companions. Makes it semi-controllery.
As for the other, how about an aura that simply denies enemy opportunity attacks? Makes for a very mobile companion, great for flanking and skirmishing. I'd personally go with the swarm causing difficult terrain and the "winter companion" slipping through enemy lines, but it's up to you.

Thanks again. Even just posting this stuff is helping me think it through, where I would otherwise have been stumped.

Thank you for letting me brainstorm with you! And thank you for the friend request!

 

[Siberys]

Just a thought; due to the Raven Queen, ravens have a heavy winter association within the fluff. Maybe that'd be something to draw on? Move the raven to winter and make autumn an elk or a fox, perhaps?

I can tell you, around here deer are certainly associated with autumn. That's when they start wandering onto roads.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

Yeah, I could see that as well. My reasoning was that a murder of crows would be quite difficult to traverse and see through, and a hunting cat would deny every attempt at tactical positioning or assault in its immediate vicinity.

Yeah, it makes good sense in context with the animal companions' nature. I had only been thinking of the season there. I think it's mostly due to the fact that whatever I come up with, my player is still not sure about what animal she wants. At this point it's between a boar (not a bad idea at all) and a squirrel (I can make this work).

The main issue here, IMHO, is inter-build balance, i.e. is it too much in comparison to the auras of the bear and the wolf? I do think a difficult terrain aura is quite powerful, as is a concealment (or lightly obscured) aura, and combining them both have the potential of surpassing the bears +2 to defences or the CA of the wolf. I do acknowledge that the balance of two companions is not solely based on their aura (the Bears bigger [W] makes up for some of its lacking features), but it is of concern none the less.

Yeah, you have a point here. Combining them would be too strong compared to other builds unless the creature had some serious downfall/shortcomings.

So I'd say go with an aura that enemies treat as difficult terrain (prevents shifting within the aura) for one of the companions. Makes it semi-controllery.
As for the other, how about an aura that simply denies enemy opportunity attacks? Makes for a very mobile companion, great for flanking and skirmishing. I'd personally go with the swarm causing difficult terrain and the "winter companion" slipping through enemy lines, but it's up to you.

Yeah, these are good suggestions. I think if she picks squirrel, I will have its aura deny OAs to enemies in the aura, and have its attack be one that distracts the enemy, allowing an ally to make a basic attack (like the Warlord).

Thank you for letting me brainstorm with you! And thank you for the friend request!

It's been my pleasure on both counts, Ravenheart.

Just a thought; due to the Raven Queen, ravens have a heavy winter association within the fluff. Maybe that'd be something to draw on? Move the raven to winter and make autumn an elk or a fox, perhaps?

I can tell you, around here deer are certainly associated with autumn. That's when they start wandering onto roads.

That was one of the possibilities I'd considered, and would have been a 'done deal' had the player in question not balked at my using a Stag or Elk.

I know what you mean about deer on the highway in that part of Michigan though! I took a trip to Marquette around that time of year and it was a brutal mess all the way down M-28. Here in Northern Ontario, we have plenty of deer around, but they don't swarm onto the highway like that, and we only see the odd carcass here and there. There must be more deer in Michigan. Or they're dumber!