Sequestering Strike Instakill?

[Solodan]

I've always played that you can't teleport to anywhere without a place to stand. If it were otherwise, every time my monsters have a teleporting power, it would be VERY bad for the PC's. Anything the PC's get, the NPC's can get to (well, except healing for the most part)

 

[cmbarona]

So, what's the general consensus on teleporting into other hazards? Say into a spot of a known trap that the enemy will trigger if put there? I ask because my avanger used this on a kobold to put him into his own pit trap once.

I guess this issue is the same as the ledge one: the DM shouldn't make any other hazards that are instant kills either.

 

[Tuft]

So, what's the general consensus on teleporting into other hazards? Say into a spot of a known trap that the enemy will trigger if put there? I ask because my avanger used this on a kobold to put him into his own pit trap once.

I guess this issue is the same as the ledge one: the DM shouldn't make any other hazards that are instant kills either.

As per page 44 of the DMG, a creature is entitled to a saving throw if you use forced movement to put it into Hindering Terrain.

Hindering terrain is defined on page 61 of DMG as "Hindering terrain prevents movement (or severely punishes it) or damages creatures that enter it, but allows line of sight." with the examples "Pits, deep water, lava, fire."

You are not entitled to a saving throw if you are brought into a dangerous situation that is not due to hindering terrain, such as within striking range a dangerous creature.

Now, is a trap considered hindering terrain, or is it just another dangerous situation, such as the above creature? In the Encounter chapter of the DMG, traps seem to be closer to monsters than to terrain, but I guess that it comes down to individual DM judgement call in absence of anything clearcut.

If traps are included as hindering terrain, another important aspect is if the danger has to be known. If you slide creatures off a ledge with the slidees not knowing about their imminent fall (due to blindness, illusions, unconsciousness etc), are they still entitled to saves? If you slide someone into a trap they dont know about, what happens?

I would claim that this too comes down to individual case-by-case DM judgement call.

 

[CubeKnight]

What works for the PC's also works for the monsters. Give the players a scare by teleporting them off a short ledge. don't kill them but make it hurt and they may be okay with a rule change. Once they see an instant kill in their characters future that is.

/agree

It's the same thing I did with all the save-or-die spells in 3.5. I told my players if they started slinging SODs around, the enemies would do the same. So far, they haven't used them.

If you don't want to be an evil DM (tm), instead of scaring them in-combat, just talk to them before the game. Tell them that if their powers can teleport people to unsafe squares, then the enemies' teleport powers can do so as well. If they agree, then, well, go right ahead and see if falling a few dozen feet changes their minds. An AoE Teleport power (are there any?) that leaves half the party bloodied and the other half dying would probably get the point across. I'd recommend hitting the whole party because:
a) That way, the Avenger's PC won't feel like it's personal
b) The encounter effectively ends (with the PCs losing, of course) so they have time to lick their wounds
c) The party doesn't get split (that always suck)

 

[Tuft]

It's the same thing I did with all the save-or-die spells in 3.5. I told my players if they started slinging SODs around, the enemies would do the same. So far, they haven't used them.

I've done the same thing as a player with my sorceress in a 3.5 Savage Tide adventure path campaign - I've actively avoided taking SODs.

A) It's more important to me that the campaign works all the way up to 20 than to "rule" in a few fights. Long time enjoyment over short time gratification, like.
B) I like utility magic over fighting punch anyway.

 

[Mirtek]

It stops all this rubbish, no encounter power should ever auto kill on a hit (save and die stayed with 3E thankfully). This is a legal loop hole that the DM has every right to close, hard.

Well, the thing is that it is the DM who opened said loop hole. It's nothing wrong with the encounter power, on a battle field like this, mere at-will powers (e.g. tide of iron) accomplish the same "save or die "kills.

If you do not want someone pushed over a cliff, don't place cliffs on your battlefield.

 

[mach1.9pants]

Well, the thing is that it is the DM who opened said loop hole. It's nothing wrong with the encounter power, on a battle field like this, mere at-will powers (e.g. tide of iron) accomplish the same "save or die "kills.

If you do not want someone pushed over a cliff, don't place cliffs on your battlefield.

Good point

My house rule is to say you can only teleport people to unsafe spaces you could slide them to. So I'd allow the save either way, but if they fall, they fall.

The only problem I have with this is that, generally, teleport effects have a greater range than forced movement effects making it easier to teleport to those places 9like just over the edge of a cliff). This means it is more dangerous to the character doing the forced movement as well 'cos they have to be closer to the hazard to cause the forced movement (i.e. tide of iron guy s now right next ot the cliff, some one using a teleport effect can be a distance away).
I see where you are coming from but I am going to stick to a square they can stand on: edge of cliff (AP>thunderwave!), into a traps area, right next to the enraged dragon, into the middle of a large bit of difficult terrrain, onto the water. But not: over the cliff, into some lava, deep under the water, 510 squares straight up etc.

 

[Herschel]

I rule is as the teleports aren't simultaneous as the power states the foe teleports then you teleport to an adjacent space. This means at the end of the action you must be adjacent, re: if he falls, you go too as when all is said & done you need to be adjacent to him.

 

[eriktheguy]

/agree

It's the same thing I did with all the save-or-die spells in 3.5. I told my players if they started slinging SODs around, the enemies would do the same. So far, they haven't used them.

If you don't want to be an evil DM (tm), instead of scaring them in-combat, just talk to them before the game. Tell them that if their powers can teleport people to unsafe squares, then the enemies' teleport powers can do so as well. If they agree, then, well, go right ahead and see if falling a few dozen feet changes their minds. An AoE Teleport power (are there any?) that leaves half the party bloodied and the other half dying would probably get the point across. I'd recommend hitting the whole party because:
a) That way, the Avenger's PC won't feel like it's personal
b) The encounter effectively ends (with the PCs losing, of course) so they have time to lick their wounds
c) The party doesn't get split (that always suck)

My worry is that by doing this you are encouraging the PCs not to be creative. The next time one of your PCs thinks of a cool way to use their power, are they going to be afraid that the DM will get angry and make it backfire? I would rule in this case, that enemies cannot be teleported into midair. (but still let the player abuse the power the one time that he discovers the abuse). Otherwise, do not punish the PCs for being creative. They might in the future teleport the monster onto some spikes, into a pool of acid, or on top of a trap door.

If the abuse is situational, then I usually let it go. If it is a power they could abuse constantly, I let it go 'just this once' and then house rule it.

 

[fissionessence]

Some teleport-an-enemy powers actually have text that says you must teleport the target to a surface that can support it. Just add this clause onto that power, plus any other relevant powers.

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