Sequestering Strike Instakill?

[Jack99]

Some teleport-an-enemy powers actually have text that says you must teleport the target to a surface that can support it. Just add this clause onto that power, plus any other relevant powers.

~

Not sure about how many has that text, but there is indeed a power from FR that has

"The target must end its movement on a surface that can support it."

stated in the teleportation power.

I think this should be made a general rule for teleport powers. Would save everyone a lot of grief.

 

[Machus]

He can teleport people, why can he not teleport them off a cliff? Much more fun to play a game that follows the flavor of what's written.

Two things should make this a non-issue.

1. You are always in control of
- not using such steep drops in fights (someone else pointed this out too)
- give plenty of options to important, non-stupid opposition so they have some versatility in getting out of bad situations, you know, like players try to put them in.

2. Once a player demonstrates certain rules can be...pushed to their advantage, just be sure their opposition plays just as dirty. Standard interpretations are a lot more fun when a player knows their ham handed plans are no longer an unfair advantage.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

He can teleport people, why can he not teleport them off a cliff? Much more fun to play a game that follows the flavor of what's written.

Not really. The idea of the power is that it is an interesting tactical power. Move the enemy into a better position. That is why it isn't a level 29 Daily(which are all less powerful than the instant kill version of this power).

Following the flavor of things instead of the intentions behind them is what causes things like my 2e group who used grease and burning hands to take out a level 12 Wizard at 3rd level and get enough XP to go up 5 levels. Simply because a player said, "Grease is flammable. Burning Hands would set the whole thing on fire at once. What happens in real life if you were standing in a 20 foot diameter circle of fire? Your skin would be burned off within seconds. And this is a frail old wizard who studies books all day. There's no way he'd be tough enough to get out of there. I mean, it should do at least as much damage as a fireball, right? Because it's the same thing. Only there's no way he could get a save against it, you can't duck under the grease or leap out of the area of effect or behind cover. So he'd take max damage with no save. That would be around 60 points, right. He's got no Con bonus, so that should killing him outright." And the DM said, "Makes sense to me."

Better to keep the flavor: "You get to teleport people around and move them into better positions" while also keeping the balance that goes with it: "It does about as much damage as a level 3 Encounter power should do." And you can do that simply by saying "You must teleport the enemy onto a surface that can support him." Let's say because the magic needs to flow through a surface and uses a small portion of the strength of the object in order to recreate the target on top of it. If the object is too weak the magic fails, so no teleporting on top of water, lava, or the like.

2. Once a player demonstrates certain rules can be...pushed to their advantage, just be sure their opposition plays just as dirty. Standard interpretations are a lot more fun when a player knows their ham handed plans are no longer an unfair advantage.

Trust me, you don't want to get into this war with your players. It always ends badly.

A player decides to teleport a guy off a cliff and you think, "Oh, is that the way we are going to play? Then surely you won't mind the next battle being against these 16 minions who have the ability to teleport you while fighting on a platform 200 feet in the air." And suddenly you have a near TPK on your hands.

Even if you don't go that far...there is still a reason save or dies were removed from the game. Allowing even one enemy to do this ever reintroduces save or dies into the game. Players love to abuse things they see as loopholes in the rules. But, they often STILL get mad when you use the same loopholes against them.

 

[Vaeron]

Wow, you guys would really hate the level 20 Spellstorm power, teleport all enemies in a burst 10 to anywhere within the burst 10, int v fort.

What possible justification can be given for changing the way a power works, except for a DM just not wanting to deal with it? This comes down to DM responsibility - if a session is going to take place over a 1,000 foot drop, there should be a reasonable expectation that someone, a PC or a monster, might fall off that drop.

So let's nerf bullrush, so that PCs can't push monsters over the edge. Let's edit Tide of Iron, so that shield bashes mysteriously are incapable of moving monsters off the sides of edges. Let's edit teleport, so the ability to move anywhere is inexplicably now confined to surfaces that could be stood on.

This is unreasonable. The power does what the power says it does. The DM shouldn't be in the business of changing PC powers just because he's not clever or thoughtful enough to take those powers into account ahead of time. Let's just decide that radiant damage doesn't do extra damage to undead, to prevent multiple divine party members having too easy of a time, while we're at it.

If the DM is so foolish as to not expect someone to fall off the 1,000 foot drop HE installed in the combat area, he shouldn't be in the business of DMing.

 

[tmatk]

Wow, you guys would really hate the level 20 Spellstorm power, teleport all enemies in a burst 10 to anywhere within the burst 10, int v fort.

What possible justification can be given for changing the way a power works, except for a DM just not wanting to deal with it? This comes down to DM responsibility - if a session is going to take place over a 1,000 foot drop, there should be a reasonable expectation that someone, a PC or a monster, might fall off that drop.

So let's nerf bullrush, so that PCs can't push monsters over the edge. Let's edit Tide of Iron, so that shield bashes mysteriously are incapable of moving monsters off the sides of edges. Let's edit teleport, so the ability to move anywhere is inexplicably now confined to surfaces that could be stood on.

This is unreasonable. The power does what the power says it does. The DM shouldn't be in the business of changing PC powers just because he's not clever or thoughtful enough to take those powers into account ahead of time. Let's just decide that radiant damage doesn't do extra damage to undead, to prevent multiple divine party members having too easy of a time, while we're at it.

If the DM is so foolish as to not expect someone to fall off the 1,000 foot drop HE installed in the combat area, he shouldn't be in the business of DMing.

Tide of iron and bullrush both grant saving throws before a creature falls into peril. I agree 1,000' drops are probably unreasonable, but house rules aren't, they are part of the game.

On a related note, I was alerted to something in the draconomicon, via the gleemax forums:

Portal drakes have a burst 5 teleport power and "Its cruelest tactic is to teleport foes over a pit or off the edge of a cliff."

Then theres a blurb off to the side -

...if the portal drake teleports a creature over a precipice or a pit, but at least one side of the destination space has terrain that a creature could grab to catch itself (see “Falling,” Player’s Handbook, page 284), allow the creature the saving throw for going over the edge. In fact, when using this power, it’s almost always better to allow the PCs a chance to avoid the extreme effect of failure, so even if a portal drake could portal burst an enemy into a square that would offer no possibility of a saving throw, it might be better to pick
a square that does, thus creating the possibility for a literal cliffhanger!

Obviously the author thinks being ported into a pit without a save is cheesy; I agree!

 

[keterys]

The best part is when you teleport a target 10 squares straight up, too. Cause adding 5d10 damage to a power is totally balanced, too.