[Seriously] What is the ECl of a Munchkin?

DM_Matt

First Post
My players tend to minmax like crazy (esp on the prestige classes).
That being said,I wish to adjust the effective party CR somewhat to reflect that fact that they are far more powerful than people of their level ought to be. (Group = Order of the Bow Init, Ninja otc Moon, Arcane Trickster, Frenzied Berserker. Weapon Master, a cleric, a druid, and an NPC with spellfire...the levels of the PCs are 16-17).
How many virtual levels of power can really be squeezed from the system?
 

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If the players, min max, so should you. Give the creatures max HPs without increasing CR. Increase their stats and give them better feats and skills. THere are many things you can do to the creatures without effecting their CRs.
 

Don't increase the effective party level at all. Just give the monsters some levels in some of those same freaky prestige classes (hrm... those cloud giant ninjas can't hide worth a da*n, but they can sure fight!). OK, do ogres at first. Send in 4-6 Ogre Ftr5/Obi5's (CR 12) with Huge Mighty Composite Longbows keyed to their high Strength scores. THEN think about the frost/fire/cloud giants with Gargantuan bows...

Start tossing in Half-fiend Trolls with 9 barbarian levels. Only CR 16, right? The fact that someone needs to do more than 20 points of fire/acid damage in one shot to coup de grace them (the PC's essentially have to waste a spell), and that this is the only way to kill them aside from doing all 200 or so damage with fire/acid, this doesn't change their CR no more than the PC's prestige class levels do, eh?

In other words, you simply have to be as creative with your monsters as they are with their PC's.

I've found Jamis Buck's NPC Generator a valuable tool for doing stuff like this. Choose a class with same BAB and HD as the pretige class you want, cut/paste the stat block to your own document, and make changes to the stat block to reflect the prestige class abilities, armor, weapons, and such. I can do the stat blocks "freehand" these days, but when I wasn't so good at it the NPC Generator saved LOTS of time!
 

P.S.: I also tend to change their feat selections to make more sense, and shift the skill points over to relevant skills (or delete skills entirely and assume ranks =CR for class skills, =0 for cross-class skills, then add ability adjustment). Determining equipment for monsters with classes is sometimes a pain. I'd give them normal versions of their desired weapons if the monsters have no access to good crafters (and most of their treasure is money), and MW or even magic items to those who have such access.
 

I dislike all the work of customizing feats, adding stats, or class levels because it means I've got to do work for every combat.

Here's my theory, CR's are based off of the 4 iconic classes. Non-min/maxed, spread thin, 15, 14, 13 stat characters. No prestige classes, a lot of money invested in potions and minor magical items. Very blunted characters.

I figure a min/maxed Tordek is about 2 levels higher than an iconic Tordek. So when I plan what encounters to send, I pretend my group is two levels higher. Works for me.

Give it a shot. Pull your punches if you goof.
 

And don't forget to cheat. If they're blowing through an encounter that you'd meant to be the big challenge for the night, just don't let the opponents die until you're good and ready for them to. Don't be ridiculous about it, like a 500 hit point goblin or anything, but letting an opponent survive a couple more hits than you'd originally planned can go a long way towards bringing an encounter up to an appropriate challenge.
 

As a player in this group, I disagree with the theory that we need more powerful enemies. I think we need less powerful PCs. The min/maxing in the group and by our enemies tends to prompt more min/maxing and this vicious cycle is responsible for a lot of the group's current problems. The group has the advantage of being very well set up to fight min/maxed enemies. We don't have that much treasure (this might not be true by now), but have some of the essential cheap items (like the +6 to your primary stat item). The party then casts buff spells to make us very powerful for single fights.

The most min/maxed characters are all fighter types, which lets us kill anything by brute force. At very high levels min/maxed fighter types are almost assured of doing a large amount of damage a round, which means that if the entire party concentrates fire on one enemy, they die very quickly.

For example, the weaponmaster is currently at only 3/4 of his maximum power solely because he uses a long sword (if he had a falchion or scythe, he'd be much stronger). However, Ki Critical and Improved Critical combined with a magic longsword and very high strength let him get x3 crits for long enough to win one big fight against a low number of enemies. He also uses the Whirlwind/Great Cleave combo to kill any bad guy surrounded by low level guards.

The Arcane Trickster is an NPC. As the only real arcane spellcaster in the group, she casts several buff spells before any battle. She also has the usual rogue/sneak attack tricks and would be good in combat if not for the fighter types. The Ninja suffers from the same problem, to some extent. Without Sneak Attack, the rogue-types do nothing compared to the fighters. With sneak attack, the rogues destroy anything that they can hit.

The OOBI is a half-celestial, which gives him spells and makes him very hard to kill. At close range he does as much damage as a melee fighter. This is after the DM significantly cut down on his power.

The Frenzied Berserker has such ridiculously high Str that Supreme Power Attack is a worthless ability, since he already does over 100 damage a round to anyone with a low (30) AC.

The spellcasters have way too many options as a result of all of the new class/FR books. Levels of power is a bad way of describing things. The entire system has been reduced to its most efficient components, which is then the party. And so on...

I think we should just get rid of some of these prestige classes which advance the power of the character and forbid most of the non-PH spells. We have a couple of new players and this would reduce the game to the pace of "slow" 3-4 round combats, allowing them to get more into the game and encouraging them to make and play characters with more tricks than their max damage.
 

Is Combat the only way to solve adventures? If the answer is yes, I recommend trying to change this... If the characters focus is only combat, than this will be some weakness, and might force them to attempt to compensate for it...

Oh, and giving Monster classes: This idea isn`t bad. I think it makes things much more interesting. (Think of a Troll Ranger using a Wand of Resist Element) But it might not overpower them. :)

Mustrum Ridcully
 

Here's my advice...

The most min/maxed characters are all fighter types,

Which makes them great to dominate/charm/stun/whatever with Will-based magic.

Those fighter-types are even better when turned against the party they're supposed to be fighting for. :) Be sneaky...have one monster as a distraction, while a hidden one dominates from a distance. A fighter type is going to fail his save eventually...

He also uses the Whirlwind/Great Cleave combo to kill any bad guy surrounded by low level guards.

Well, then...use missle attacks. :) Put a pit between the foe and the war machine...forces them to use their paltry little ranged attacks.

The Arcane Trickster is an NPC.

Ah, this makes it easy then...kill her off. Preferably in a horrid and malicious sort of way. A way that makes the PC's realize they're *not* invincible. :)

Without Sneak Attack, the rogue-types do nothing compared to the fighters. With sneak attack, the rogues destroy anything that they can hit.

...except constructs and/or undead. A simple Animate Objects could keep them and their little sneaky attacks busy long enough to take their piddly HP out.

The OOBI is a half-celestial, which gives him spells and makes him very hard to kill. At close range he does as much damage as a melee fighter

All the more reason to use ranged attacks against these guys. Use weird angles or stealthy foes...shooting a bow doesn't make you visible, and if they're high enough in the Rogue department, they could be dishing out sneak attack damage too. As a half-cel, the guy's gotta be pretty wussy on HP. If he goes down, and the trixey one's been killed horribly, then all you have to deal with is fighters who can be dominated. :)

The Frenzied Berserker has such ridiculously high Str that Supreme Power Attack is a worthless ability, since he already does over 100 damage a round to anyone with a low (30) AC.

...as well he should probably do. Which is why you need to use sneaky ranged attacks and cheap lil' spells. He's a berserker...he'd be a fun guy do Dominate. :)

In general, I don't see a *whole* lot of problems, here. Fighters are supposed to be dishing out a lot of damage, ditto with barbarians. Ninjas and Rogues are supposed to be basically sneak-attack-and-then-run-like-wussies.

Some general guidelines for tactics...

1) Put something between the party and the attacker. Hiding foes firing bows, arrow slits, a long trapped corridoor, a pool of magma, whatever. Large numbers of creatures spaced far apart who hit them at range...nickel-and-dime 'em to death. Without a healer, they shouldn't have too long.

2) Be sneaky. Hiding, darkness spells, illusions...make them waste their few precious rounds of maximum buffness. Spells don't last forever, and there's only so many POW spells they can cast.

3) Hit 'em where it hurts. Their saves. *every* class has at least one weak save that a savvy opponent will know and take advantage of. Fighter-types are usually vulnerable to Ref and/or Will. Rogue types are vulnerable to Fort and/or Will. Mage types are vulnerable to Ref and/or Fort. Hit Fort and Will most often, since those tend to have the worst consequences (getting stunned, poisoned, drained of levels, whatnot).
a) Fort weakness: Stunning, poison, outright death, draining levels...if you ever want to blunt those sneaky attacks, Undead would be a lot of fun on these guys.
b) Ref weakness: Basically area-damage territory. Certainly doesn't hurt to take them down a few notches while they're still closing in.
c) Will weakness: It's time to make the enemies fight for you. Most will-based saves take combatants out of the arena for a few rounds at least, and, at the higher echelon, they start getting into coup de grace territory...or etenral slavery. Either or. :)

4) High HP? Not after HARM/METEOR SWARM, it ain't! :)

5) High AC? Hooray for incorporeal! :)

So...I guess what I'm saying is send 'em after a cabal of vampires (undead and sneaky with a charming gaze and level drianing powers) who perhaps have Wizard/Sorc levels (for more versatility), who like to use automatons (including traps, if you'd like) and illusions to weaken up prey, and will never, ever enter into a straight-up combat. Ideally, they'll splinter the group into several smaller parties (or individually) with traps, spinning walls, illusiary doors and the like that they can then take their leisure killing off the PC's one-by-one.

That's right. Gnomish vamires. Cowardly gnomish vampires of doom, with little robotic familiars!

After wiping out a PC or two, you should feel better, and so will they.

Then, when they buff their newfound weaknesses, they can get smacked in other ways.

IMHO, using the core rules, there's *always* a way to take down a PC, if you have the motivation. A combination of rat-bastard DMing and brilliant enemy tactics will hurt them much.

Oh, and if you go by CR, expect them to be able to whoop about 5 encounters of their CR before feelin expended. CR isn't meant to be a great challenge, just something that'll...y'know...make them use a potion or a spell or two. You probably want to go at least two above for one creature of "boss-level" power.
 

...does over 100 damage a round to anyone with a low (30) AC...


Nice. But you're forgetting something. CR 16-17 monsters are ranked that high from fighting iconic Tordek. To a party of 4 character's who's highest stat after belts/gloves/cloaks/etc. is 21.

That seems awefully low doesn't it? :) He's got 21 Str, a +3 weapon, and +17 base attack, so he's got +25/+20/+15/+10 instead of the probably +40 or +35 that the berserker or weaponmaster can get to.

And he does (get this) 1d10+10 per hit. That's it. 11-20 points of damage. If he hits twice against--you said 30 is a low AC?--he'll be lucky to do 35 points of damage that round.

That's why an 85 hp marilith that your berserker can kill in one round is CR 17. Because to Tordek and company, she's one mean bitch. To your group, as written, she's still a bitch, it's just she's your bitch.

Your group--while they may be "only" level 16-17--are equal to the iconic group at level 19-20 (that might actually be a little conservative). That means the XP awards and CR scale are both off by a few levels which is what gets you into the vicious cycle.

If the DM throws 3 critters at you that are each 18 CR, you mop the floor with them expending less than 20% of your resources, because in reality while he thought he was sending something your party level +2, he in fact misjudged your party level and sent something party level -1. Worse, the XP chart says you get 30,000 xp for it because you just defeated 3 creatures all higher CR than your party level instead of the 9,000 XP (or less) that your afternoon stroll was worth.

Hence the viscious cycle.

The easiest (read: least work for the DM----and that's a good thing, because it gives him more time to work on personalities, hooks, and plot) way for the DM to deal with this is not to handicap players (no fun) or to take away their abilities (kinda like dm cheating), but to just figure out what level they'd have to be to do the things they do with nothing but improved crit, power attack, weapon focus, and cleave (look at their terrible choices in feats that the CR system is based off of), 15/14/13 stats (upped to 21 max), and no prestige classes or good magical items.

Because while your XP and the number on your Level line says one thing, that doesn't match up with your capabilties in the conservative system WotC invented to appease the "We-Hate-Power-Gamers" purists. And that makes for all kinds of headaches for the poor DM.
 
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