D&D 5E Setting Party level vs an Ancient Red Dragon

[Henry]

Sorry to hear it, Reynard. In the end, the wish screwed you over, not once, but TWICE! (Adding a 20th level bard and adding all his spells!)

Did the players have fun with the encounter, though? They might have a different view of it than you, and might be super-pleased that all their planning paid off. Either way, I’ve never liked forcecage, and I remember why now.

 

[Reynard]

Sorry to hear it, Reynard. In the end, the wish screwed you over, not once, but TWICE! (Adding a 20th level bard and adding all his spells!)

Did the players have fun with the encounter, though? They might have a different view of it than you, and might be super-pleased that all their planning paid off. Either way, I’ve never liked forcecage, and I remember why now.

Some of them (i.e. the ones that did all the meticulous number crunching) had a ball. Others not so much.

But what do they say? All unhappiness is based on unmet expectations? I was expecting a hard fought battle with moments of terror and triumph. I was obviously not being realistic.

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[CapnZapp]

I was playing it RAW which means no save and the dragon fits

Don't play high-level RAW.

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[Reynard]

Don't play high-level RAW.

I am not going to run 5E at all for a while. As much as I like the core of the system, I am obviously not detail oriented enough to dig into all the variables. I have struggled with this group on that level for a while and it just isn't fun for me. I am considering going to an old version (B/X probably) or find a more grounded, less fiddly bits fantasy game.

 

[dave2008]

I was playing it RAW which means no save and the dragon fits in a 20x20x20 space due to its size.

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That is not necessarily RAW. The DM is expected to adjudicate border cases. Gargantuan is 20x20 or bigger (notice the Tarrasque is described as 50' long but is only gargantuan.

From the SRD: "Gargantuan 20 by 20 ft. or larger Kraken, Purple Worm"

There is nothing against RAW for assuming a gargantuan dragon with 15' bite and 15' tail attack and 15' wing attack, extends beyond its 20' space.

 

[dave2008]

I am not going to run 5E at all for a while. As much as I like the core of the system, I am obviously not detail oriented enough to dig into all the variables. I have struggled with this group on that level for a while and it just isn't fun for me. I am considering going to an old version (B/X probably) or find a more grounded, less fiddly bits fantasy game.

I think you might of missed, or glossed over, @CapnZapp's point. It is not about being detail oriented. You shouldn't worry about RAW, you should worry about fun, IMHO. Frankly, I could tell you were a bit doomed from the start when you were trying to adhere to the encounter guidelines. It seemed you were to worried about going "by the book," that you dismissed the comments telling you that wasn't going to work. I had hoped I would be wrong, but it seems, at least from your perspective, I was not.

At times I find it can be really liberating as a DM to let go of the details and just focus on fun. I remember in 4e I had my group face a balor as the big bad at the end of a particular adventure. It was way above their level, so I thought it would be length interesting battle. I was wrong and the group was in process of stomping it in quick order, so when they fire subsided from its fiery death, it was actually transformed into a more powerful demon that I just modified on the fly. It was RAW, but it was one of the best encounters we had over 10 levels of play.

 

[Reynard]

I think you might of missed, or glossed over, @CapnZapp's point. It is not about being detail oriented. You shouldn't worry about RAW, you should worry about fun, IMHO. Frankly, I could tell you were a bit doomed from the start when you were trying to adhere to the encounter guidelines. It seemed you were to worried about going "by the book," that you dismissed the comments telling you that wasn't going to work. I had hoped I would be wrong, but it seems, at least from your perspective, I was not.

At times I find it can be really liberating as a DM to let go of the details and just focus on fun. I remember in 4e I had my group face a balor as the big bad at the end of a particular adventure. It was way above their level, so I thought it would be length interesting battle. I was wrong and the group was in process of stomping it in quick order, so when they fire subsided from its fiery death, it was actually transformed into a more powerful demon that I just modified on the fly. It was RAW, but it was one of the best encounters we had over 10 levels of play.

Yeah, it was certainly a fools erand. But my point about backing away from 5e is based on the fact that I am not interested in scouring books for every eventuality in order to make a fight like that fun when I can make that fight fun off the top of my head in B/X. Part of it is running in Fantasy grounds and being reliant on things coded in and such. But a lot of it is just being out of league versus the particular players at my table. A couple of the players are super rulesy and are always dissecting everything like we were playing Magic. It is a totally valid playstyle, just not one I am comfortable GMing.

 

[dave2008]

Yeah, it was certainly a fools erand. But my point about backing away from 5e is based on the fact that I am not interested in scouring books for every eventuality in order to make a fight like that fun when I can make that fight fun off the top of my head in B/X. Part of it is running in Fantasy grounds and being reliant on things coded in and such. But a lot of it is just being out of league versus the particular players at my table. A couple of the players are super rulesy and are always dissecting everything like we were playing Magic. It is a totally valid playstyle, just not one I am comfortable GMing.

I definitely recommend doing what your comfortable with. However, I think you can play 5e pretty much like B/X, that is how I do it. I grew up on B/X in the 80s and early 90s and took a hiatus until 4e came out (I never played 2e or 3e). I DM 4e and 5e pretty much just like I did B/X. I have never scoured the books for every eventuality, and that worked fine in 4e and does in 5e too. However, I guess it probably depends on the group you have, I'm lucky in that regard. I also have no idea how FG works and how it handles the DM just winging it! That could be a huge issue for my DM style.

 

[Stalker0]

So I think this showcases just how much a large number of medium leveled heroes can do. I thought they would win, but didn’t think they would win without a death. I worried about the wishes, and looks like that was the nail.

I never heard anything about the dragon fear in the notes. We’re thry immune somehow?

 

[Reynard]

So I think this showcases just how much a large number of medium leveled heroes can do. I thought they would win, but didn’t think they would win without a death. I worried about the wishes, and looks like that was the nail.

I never heard anything about the dragon fear in the notes. We’re thry immune somehow?

Heroes' feast prior to dropping the wards.

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