D&D 5E Setting Party level vs an Ancient Red Dragon

[Imaculata]

In this case though, it is definitely also a case of a DM not being properly prepared for the strength of his party. The DM should have been aware that Force Cage was a spell his players could cast, and even if he didn't know, he should have found a way to allow the dragon to escape the spell (even if it costs a legendary action to do so). Also, and this is very important:

Always have minions support your big bad boss, and have more than one objective for your players during combat!

 

[Oofta]

Thank you for your post, but really, you're just saying the same thing again, only in polite language.

In other words, its not about "it does often come down to the DM's skill and experience. It also comes down to how soft a DM wants to be toward their PCs."

It's about this edition not properly equipping its monsters to handle its player characters.

Compared to previous editions* monsters are significantly nerfed with the loss of many nigh-essential abilities and features while core PHB player characters have never been given so many goodies (powers, tools, abilities) before.

The result is that no, it's not on the DM. It's on the system.

*) talking about modern times, the last twenty years or so. Or to be brutally honest, 3rd edition.

LOL. I remember a 3.5 LG game where we were facing multiple high level demons. I thought it was going to be a tough fight. Then the cleric's turn comes around and she does some fancy footwork to raise the level of her "You die!" spell* and it was game over. All enemies destroyed after using an ability and a single spell. Or another one where we're facing high level bad guys and the wizard walks up does bibldey-boo-never-skitter-quickened-etc casts half a dozen spells on his turn and no more bad guys.

Every edition has the same issue at higher levels. In 3.5 there were many spells and effects that basically stated "if you are not this level you are dead". In 4E the controllers could nerf everything out there unless the DM/mod writers did something to nerf all of their toys. As I, and others, have pointed out there were many ways this encounter could have been run to make it more challenging.

So once again, come back if you ever have any constructive advice instead of the tired old dead horse you continue to beat with every thread posting I read of how 5E is broken beyond all recognition.


*OK that wasn't the name of the spell (Holy Word maybe?) but it was the effect.

 

[CapnZapp]

Also, and this is very important:

Always have minions support your big bad boss, and have more than one objective for your players during combat!

I want my game of D&D to properly support the very cool trope where the BBEG faces the whole party on his lonesome.

I find it disappointing that you're essentially correct - 5th edition does a very poor job of enabling solo fights out of the box.

It's a shame the support isn't better for a game in its 5th edition. You would have thought the kinks are ironed out by now.

But no, WotC keeps doing the same basic mistakes over and over again - almost as if they're not even trying to improve the high level game - and too many people are far too forgiving of this in my opinion.

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app

 

[Imaculata]

Zapp, I don't think it is an issue with 5th edition. Any single monster in any D&D edition is quickly going to be reduced to dust if the whole party is allowed to gang up on him. A DM simply can't rely on such a bare bones encounter to be a challenge, especially at high level.

 

[CapnZapp]

Zapp, I don't think it is an issue with 5th edition. Any single monster in any D&D edition is quickly going to be reduced to dust if the whole party is allowed to gang up on him. A DM simply can't rely on such a bare bones encounter to be a challenge, especially at high level.

Please stop blaming the DM.

The solo encounter is a well-established trope and until D&D properly supports it, that is a considerable weakness of the ruleset. In this regard, 5e is a huge step backwards from 4e.

 

[CapnZapp]

LOL.

Know what? I can't remember you ever owning up to any problems with 5E, so I'm not sure there's a reason to listen to you.

In the meanwhile, I have gone on record multiple times saying in no uncertain terms 5th edition is the best edition of D&D ever. In fact, I would never bother with pointing out its deficiencies if I didn't care for it.

So much of what you're trying to set up here is... just bogus. Hot air.

Why don't you instead list your three biggest problems with your favorite edition (assuming 5th edition)?

If you're so new to the concept of criticizing what you love, it's okay to begin with small things.

 

[Stalker0]

A DM simply can't rely on such a bare bones encounter to be a challenge, especially at high level.

I think the one difference here is that this technically wasn't high level, it was a 9th level party with prep time and a wish. Now the wish definately made a big impact, but we also see a few other notes:

1) The party tanked the dragon's breath weapon pretty handily.
2) The party still killed the dragon is short order, only a handful of rounds.

The forcecage and counterspell definately weakened the dragon's offense, but its telling that its defenses were such that a 9th level party was able to quickly kill a solo 13 CR points higher than their weight class.

Now I do agree that CapnZapp likes to beat this drum too hard in general, but there is something telling about this case that supports his argument. I'm pretty sure if if I dropped an equivalent dragon in a 3.5 scenario it would have wiped the floor with the party, even if I played it like an idiot.

 

[Stalker0]

Know what? I can't remember you ever owning up to any problems with 5E, so I'm not sure there's a reason to listen to you.

No need to make it personal. Attack the argument, not the person...keep it civil.

 

[Imaculata]

Please stop blaming the DM.

I'm not saying it is 100% the DM's fault. In a game of D&D unpredictable things can and will happen, and your players will surprise you.

But that said, the DM is also at fault for setting up the encounter the way he did. So yes, I am blaming the DM. But I think the DM himself realizes that he goofed up too. I'm not here to insult or discourage the DM in question. Instead, I want to offer suggestions on how he could improve on such an encounter in the future.

The solo encounter is a well-established trope and until D&D properly supports it, that is a considerable weakness of the ruleset. In this regard, 5e is a huge step backwards from 4e.

Honestly I don't really care about whether it is a well-established trope or not. What I care about at the end of the day, is a fun, fair but challenging encounter with a dragon. And I disagree that 5th edition does not support this, but the DM is also expected to do some legwork.

At least he had the dragon fly around, so that's a plus. But he could have done so much more, which would ultimately have made the encounter a lot harder. Making good use of the dragon's lair is 50% of any proper dragon battle in my opinion.

 

[Oofta]

Know what? I can't remember you ever owning up to any problems with 5E, so I'm not sure there's a reason to listen to you.

In the meanwhile, I have gone on record multiple times saying in no uncertain terms 5th edition is the best edition of D&D ever. In fact, I would never bother with pointing out its deficiencies if I didn't care for it.

So much of what you're trying to set up here is... just bogus. Hot air.

Why don't you instead list your three biggest problems with your favorite edition (assuming 5th edition)?

If you're so new to the concept of criticizing what you love, it's okay to begin with small things.

I've listed the issues I have with 5E before, but sure. In no particular order:

• I think GWM/SS feel too much like a feat tax no matter what the math says (and they seem overpowered in my experience).
• I think multi-classes warlocks are wonky, and don't like that you can just swap spell sources.
• I've never cared much for how over-powered dex based characters are. The AC bonus should cap out at a certain point as should the damage from bows (or perhaps above a certain point bows should have a minimum strength).
• Speaking of bows, I allow heavy bows where you can add strength instead of dex (the bow does have to be custom made).
• I dislike some spells such as Force Cage, or (at a lower level) heat metal (cast on the guy in armor to give them perma-disadvantage). While 5E doesn't have many save-or-die they do have "I cast this spell and you're hosed".
• I don't like items that replace ability scores. Doesn't make sense to me that someone with an 8 strength could put on a belt and be by far the strongest member of the group; it makes the decision to spend ASIs on strength a stupid option if you know you will have access to such items at some point in the future.
• Getting in the recommended 6-8 encounters between long rests strains believable story lines unless you use the optional long rest rules (overnight short rest, long rest is several days to a week or more) that I use.

I could go on, but I've exceeded my 3. I think these things are relatively minor or can be tweaked. What I don't do is harp on how awful this edition is with every single post. No system is perfect and if 5E isn't for you maybe you should just move on to something else. The majority of what you whine about is stuff that the vast majority of people either tweak or ignore.

For all editions: Solos have never worked well without an encounter designed specifically to counter the groups abilities. This is especially true based on the group and how you run the game.

In my opinion 5E is better than 4E where controllers dominated the combat. It's better than previous editions with their quadratic fighters and exponential casters. It's better than 3.x/Pathfinder with it's "lets see if I can find a loophole/build that breaks the game" mentality where system mastery makes an incredible difference (still somewhat of an issue with 5E, but not as bad).

Is 5E perfect? Of course not. No game is, and it may not be the game for you. But I come to these boards to get ideas and give (hopefully helpful) feedback, not to just constantly put down and denigrate everyone who enjoys the game.