D&D (2024) Another look at Dragons: CR 27 Ancient Red Dragon

[dave2008]

@dave2008 Do you mind linking the previous version. I am curious what needed to be updated to match 2024.

That would have been a good idea! I did post this at 3am last night so please forgive! I will get it posted shortly; however, please note that the previous version had "legendary reactions" based on the old green dragon preview.

 

[TiQuinn]

Actually, I imagine it as a narrow cone (20' wide at the base) and the dragon moves its head around to cover a larger area (could be 40' "line" or roughly cone shape or whatever).

Okay, my personal take on that is the language is a bit confusing and maybe a bit tough to apply on the fly at the table.

 

[dave2008]

I am not sure I like the 'use legendary actions to use breath' model. Does it not just result in the dragon having less stuff to do when it's trying to solo a party? Could you give a few words what's the idea here?

The reason is three-fold:

1. I wanted to mimic the old school feel of claw/claw/bite or breath weapon from 1e dragons.
2. Damage. By taking up the entire round's damage they breath weapon can be its most deadly. I think that is important for dragons.
3. Thematic: The dragon inhales (Charge Breath), letting the party know what is coming, then unleashes its mightest attack. Hopefully creating some dramatic tension.

Also a bit sceptical that any creature, no matter who, is knocked prone on a rend.

Besides that - awesome!

I chose Rend instead of claw so that it could be one or two claws actually. So one claw hit might send a small creature flying or knock them prone, but two claws are needed to do the same to a larger creature. At least that is how it works in my mind.

 

[dave2008]

2. In the Colossal trait, i would change “pushed” to “forcibly moved”, so that Ephelmon cannot be pulled either.

good idea, I will think about it

3. Will you add the “War Party” action you had before where he could summon githyanki?

That is in his lair actions

4. Also, why power word kill? I’m not complaining, but I wouldn’t think to add that to a dragon necessarily. Have i missed some lore for Ephelemon?

I see red dragons as tyrants. Seem like a very tyrant thing to do to simple order someone to die!

5. I see that he cannot shapeshift. Have you stopped giving that to dragons or is that for another reason?

I only have it for some of the exarchs currently, but it makes some sense to have it on all of them. I should be clear in that I don't think a statblock is the limit to what a monster can do. The dragon magic spells would really be like his favorite play list and not all the music he knows. That being said, I will probably add it back.

 

[dave2008]

View attachment 398294
I'm not sure on this power. I like the idea of it, but it feels like a gotcha to the players. Shouldn't it just be built in to the base stats and it an 'Exarch' bonus of 300hp and +2 to CR or such?

View attachment 398295
Picky, but dispel not dispell. Also not sure if spells are capitalized in the new books.

Exarch of Tiamat is the same trait as mythic monsters in Theros and Fizba's and other sources. This is not something I made up. The idea is that if the PCs activate the mythic trait they still get the 105,000 XP even if they don't kill the dragon. Here is the trait from Fizban's:

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

I chose Rend instead of claw so that it could be one or two claws actually. So one claw hit might send a small creature flying or knock them prone, but two claws are needed to do the same to a larger creature. At least that is how it works in my mind.

That's not what the text says at all, though

 

[dave2008]

@dave2008 Do you mind linking the previous version. I am curious what needed to be updated to match 2024.

The 2014 CR version is in the OP know. I also added a quick explanation of the changes.

 

[dave2008]

That's not what the text says at all, though

That is what it says to me. FYI, I am saying one Rend can be one or two claws depending on how you want to narrate the attack. It is one attack, but it can be described different ways as needed for the situation. I don't want to dictate exactly what the action is, I want to let DMs tell their storeis here. Like this:

Against a large or smaller target only one claw attack is practical. So the Rend represents the dragon smashing down on the target with one claw, knocking them prone; or, the a single claw is swiping at the target pushing them 30 feet.

Against a Huger or larger target, two claws become practical. So the Rend represents the dragon smashing down with both claws on the target, possibly rising up on its hind legs, knocking them prone; or, the dragon is using both claw to swipe or punch at the target pushing them 30 feet.

Narratively it allows the same attack to affect creatures of vastly different sizes in the same way, which otherwise, IMO, wouldn't make a lot of sense. Like how does a single claw push a Medium and Huge creature the same distance? Making it a Rend, with more flexible narrative, allows the effective to be the same and make sense IMO

 

[Maxperson]

I am in the process of updating some stat blocks to the 2024 standards for my forthcoming Tiamat "book." The first one I am looking at is for an Ancient Red Dragon consort of Tiamat. Using the new rules and revising how damage is applied I think I have a much more threatening monster. What are your thoughts?

PS - This is a draft, I still need to clean some things up.

Here is the 2024 CR version. I increased AC, HP, and damage. I nerfed its draconic recovery and reduced its proficient saving throws from 4 - 2 (this gave more HP/DPR to work with). I also removed the Legendary Reactions (most became Legendary Actions), but they were not calculated into the 2014 CR because they didn't cause damage.
View attachment 398285

Here was my 2014 CR version.
View attachment 398302

I like the dragons. You do a good job with monsters. What I don't understand(and never have), and maybe you can help me understand, is the following.

"I also removed the Legendary Reactions (most became Legendary Actions), but they were not calculated into the 2014 CR because they didn't cause damage."

How do things that make it more of a challenge not add to CR just because they don't do damage? If a dragon can heal itself to full 50x day as a reaction, that dragon become much more of a threat. Probably an insurmountable one to a party of it's CR or less.

Why do non-damaging abilities not count towards CR?

 

[dave2008]

I like the dragons. You do a good job with monsters. What I don't understand(and never have), and maybe you can help me understand, is the following.

"I also removed the Legendary Reactions (most became Legendary Actions), but they were not calculated into the 2014 CR because they didn't cause damage."

How do things that make it more of a challenge not add to CR just because they don't do damage? If a dragon can heal itself to full 50x day as a reaction, that dragon become much more of a threat. Probably an insurmountable one to a party of it's CR or less.

Why do non-damaging abilities not count towards CR?

I was being brief in my description and perhaps confused the issue by doing so. In the previous version, with the 2014 CR, I intentionally designed the Reactions to have minimal to no effect on CR. None of them do damage and they only provide the small relief to the dragon in one way or the other. Do the effect CR a bit, sure, but only about 1/4 to 1/2 a point of CR. If they had a big effect they would have been included in the CR, but I specifically designed them to not be the case.

However, I admit I was gaming the system a bit too. These are things that don't have a clear CR impact per the 2014 DMG guidelines, but as I noted above they logically have some impact. This is less an issue with my 2024 CR dragon as the legendary actions are fully accounted for in the CR rating.