D&D 5E Settings played in D&D: cause or effect?

[fjw70]

I thought Nentir Vale was based in the NW of the FR?

If true, that would explain it.

 

[Maxperson]

I am not failing to understand anything. I'm following what you're saying just fine. And I'm not even against them producing setting material. I'd buy Planescape and Dark Sun material in a heartbeat. I also don't blame you for not buying any material you don't feel is worth your money. I wouldn't expect anyone to do otherwise.

My point is that it's a question of resource allocation. Do they devote money and manpower to making a Ravenloft setting guide at the cost of something they feel will be a better seller for the same amount of effort? Kind of like your view on books...would you buy a sourcebook with less pages and less material you would use, or would you buy one that's the same price but with twice the content? It's the same principle in play. I think for us, it's easy to see it as a simple thing.....but I don't think it is. I don't think we have enough relevant data to know for sure.

It's like when people claim not to have enough time to spend homebrewing material for Dark Sun or Ebberon or whatever...well why not? Because they have jobs and school and families and so forth. They have limited time and budget. The same applies to WotC....they can't just make anything and everything. They have limited time and budget and manpower. So they have to pick and choose what to put out.

So I think they've gone the route they have because FR is a pretty generic setting overall, although it also had plenty of potential for more specialized material. I think it's sound logic because:
- their published material has a default setting that is easy to grasp
- the default setting is incredibly easy to adapt or to borrow from
- there is a ton of source material already available about all of their settings, and so people can use that info to create their own content or modify existing content for their needs
- they recognize that some fans may feel alienated, but they accept that they must risk that portion of the fanbase to try and branch out

I am sure we'll get more settings over time, but it will be when it makes sense for them to do so. Until we do, I think it would serve folks to not see WotC's policies as some kind of personal vendetta.

That makes a lot of sense. The only thing I'd really like to add is that they have the money to bring on some independent contractors to write another setting and then let them go when the project is done. They wouldn't have to pay a ton of money out or stretch out their already thin staff.

 

[Pragmatic]

That makes a lot of sense. The only thing I'd really like to add is that they have the money to bring on some independent contractors to write another setting and then let them go when the project is done. They wouldn't have to pay a ton of money out or stretch out their already thin staff.

I THINK my sig says I'm mostly a GURPS person, so I'm going with stuff I've read about in discussions with the Steve Jackson Games staffers.

The problem with bringing in outsiders to write settings is, there are parts of the publishing process that can't be left to outsiders. There'd have to be someone to playtest the "crunch," for instance (unless you want an "uber" class to slip in--I seem to recall that the "Complete Champion" book had untested options that were overpowered).

Money isn't the only bottleneck. Sometimes, it's essential (and nigh-irreplaceable) staff, who only have limited time. The more WotC is willing to let these essential positions be done by outsiders, the more they risk having something come out under their name brand that doesn't meet their standards.

 

[pemerton]

I don't think they're choosing not to make money. I think they're choosing to make more money by only putting out the FR. By doing so, they are alienating those who won't use the FR, or even borrow little bits from it. Alienating customers is not a good practice as ultimately it could cost you more than you made on the FR product put out

How? How does it cost WotC more to sell lots of FR books than to sell few DS or Eberron books?

those alienated for lack of support go to games that will support them.

You seem to be saying that people who want to buy DS stuff for 5e, but can't, are going to go and play PF instead. But why would they do that? They can't buy DS stuff for PF either!

4e was geared towards the younger, gotta-have-it-now, MMORPG-style gamer

<snio>

...and we get 5e

<snip>

BOOM! D&D rockets back to #1, great press, surge of positive feelings and praise (at least quite a bit more than any negative-Nancy blog-bitching), and FLGS's that can't keep 5e on the shelves (at least here; if a batch of 5e stuff came in, it was gone in two days...tops).

The sad thing? Now that 5e is "successful again" they seem to be slipping back towards the "Yeah! Awesome! I know! Lets put stuff out for the younger, gotta-have-it now, MMORPG style gamer via a big 'story tie in' between all the D&D stuff! Video games, novels, supplements for those video games, etc.

4e is by a significant margin the favourite version of D&D that my group has played. And all but one of us started with dice that had to be coloured in by crayon (one of the players still uses those dice in our 4e game).
[MENTION=6785785]hawkeyefan[/MENTION] pointed out the irony in whinging about "gotta have it now" gamers while complaining that you haven't, right now. got what you want.

I'll add: what's the connection between "old skool" and wanting bucketloads of published setting material? When I was playing with crayon-coloured dice I made up my own setting. Later on, when a friend bought me a copy of the original GH folio, I marked our existing setting onto the map of Keoland. I've used those original folio maps in games using AD&D rules, Basic rules, Rolemaster and Burning Wheel.

I don't need WotC to tell me either the fiction or the mechanical details for my game, or to tell me what might be found in the middle of the Bright Desert. I can work that out for myself.

 

[Maxperson]

How? How does it cost WotC more to sell lots of FR books than to sell few DS or Eberron books?

You seem to be saying that people who want to buy DS stuff for 5e, but can't, are going to go and play PF instead. But why would they do that? They can't buy DS stuff for PF either!

Not DS. Other than FR. People who dislike FR and/or just won't buy that setting aren't being supported by FR releases. People not being supported by a game company tend to go to other companies, and yes, PF offers settings other than FR, as do other systems.

 

[Pragmatic]

Not DS. Other than FR. People who dislike FR and/or just won't buy that setting aren't being supported by FR releases. People not being supported by a game company tend to go to other companies, and yes, PF offers settings other than FR, as do other systems.

It's been awhile since I've used accounting jargon, but there's a term (which of course I've forgotten where companies set minimum returns on investment. Something to do with "if I'm getting less than this, I should just put my money on the stock market and get a better return."

WotC could put $1M into producing Dark Sun (my fave non-FR setting...). And they could make $1M+1 in revenue, netting a profit of $1.

Or they could put that $1M into some bonds, and net $30k in profit.

If their bean counters don't see ENOUGH profit in a book, they won't create it, even if it might make them SOME profit.

It's why, in 3E, WotC let other companies take the majority of the risk. They partnered to make the setting core book (IIRC, Rokugan/Oriental Adventures and DragonLance?), then left the supplements (with much lower print runs and much lower profits) to be risked by the partners. They even let the adventures (MUCH lower print runs and MUCH lower profits) be made by dozens of third-party companies.

 

[Warbringer]

Well we've been told the basic math; will it sell a 100,000 copies.

Gut feeling this means that it needs to be of interest to 10-15% of the base players, 30-50% of those will buy.

Completely made up, but that's what I'd bet it's somewhere in there; anything below those numbers won't leave the design board.

 

[hawkeyefan]

That makes a lot of sense. The only thing I'd really like to add is that they have the money to bring on some independent contractors to write another setting and then let them go when the project is done. They wouldn't have to pay a ton of money out or stretch out their already thin staff.

Sure, I think that's almost a certainty. That's how they handle the adventures...they outsource and use their staff for direction.

My guess is we'll see paired books...like they'll do an adventure book that revolves around Sigil and the planes, and then put out a Planar Adventurer's Handbook. Or they'll put out a Ravenloft Adventure and then a Dread Domain Adventurer's Guide. Something along those lines. I see the Planes and Ravenloft as the two most likely settings because they can connect to the FR easily, and in fact they already do. Athas and Ebberon might be a bit trickier, so my guess would be that it'll depend on how successful the Planes and Ravenloft go. But this is all conjecture on my part.

 

[ad_hoc]

During 3E, WotC didn't even make the Ravenloft campaign setting. The whole line was outsorced to White Wolf. It worked, so the sample is here. Outsorcing the minor settings would make these alive, which satisfies these setting's fans and further boosts the core books and supplements sales.

It happened, but that doesn't mean it worked.

I bought the full line of 3.x Ravenloft books but I only bought the core books from 3.x and I bought those before Ravenloft was released.

We don't know how much they made on those or what it did to the edition.

 

[Lanefan]

Those home brewers are also chocked full of people who won't touch the realms and won't filch from FR, the ONLY published setting (not published settings).

The only 5e-published setting, you mean. 5e is flexible enough you can filch from any published setting from any edition and very likely end up with a playable game.

Not DS. Other than FR. People who dislike FR and/or just won't buy that setting aren't being supported by FR releases. People not being supported by a game company tend to go to other companies, and yes, PF offers settings other than FR, as do other systems.

Well, PF offers one setting - Golarion. They've done a good job of making that setting malleable enough to support all kinds of game styles, but in the end it's still just one (great whacking big) setting.

In fact, how many game companies support more than one full setting? Runequest has Glorantha. Harn has...well, Harn. Judges' Guild had (has?) the City State of the Invincible Overlord and some variants thereon. I'm sure there's others but I can't think of them right now.

For that matter, how many bother with a formal fleshed-out setting at all? DCC, for example, kinda waves vaguely at the idea of a setting and otherwise leaves the DM to make it all up.

Lan-"meanwhile WotC have so many settings they can't keep up with them"-efan