{Settings Tournament} Round 3...And then there were Eight

[Alzrius]

What I don't understand is Greyhawk is cleaning up while FR is getting beaten, yet they're essentially the same thing.

I strongly disagree.

 

[Kinak]

What I don't understand is Greyhawk is cleaning up while FR is getting beaten, yet they're essentially the same thing. When I first saw this playoff setup I fully expected these two to meet in the finals having mowed everything else down like grass on the way there. Elminster and Drizz't can't make that much difference to the perception of these two setting, can they?

Well, and Greyhawk is against Mystara while Forgotten Realms is against Planescape. That probably makes as much, if not more difference.

That said, Elminster and Drizz't certainly can make that much of a difference, especially as a symbol for the setting's other traits:

• People object to having powerful good NPCs, with Elminster being the poster child.
• Some also want a continuity that's defined in the RPG products rather than novels, with Drizz't being the symbol as the center of the most popular novel line.
• And some people what their characters to be the at the center of things, with flagship characters pulling focus from what they want to do at the table.

Those points are all matters of opinion, but it can be more than just a petulant dislike of the flagship characters.

Granted, some people just hate Drizz't because they have that one friend that wants to play Drizz't in every game or can't stand Elminster being a dirty old man. But it's entirely possible to dislike what those characters have done to the setting, regardless of whether you like or dislike the characters on their own merits.

Cheers!
Kinak

 

[Mercurius]

I'm one of the rare folks that actually prefers the Forgotten Realms to Greyhawk, but that's mainly because the products for FR have been better. I'd love to see a Greyhawk book in the style of the 3e FR hardcover which, in my mind, still sets the bar for setting books (or at least hasn't been clearly surpassed).

Both are flawed, of course, but what isn't? I think Golarion has more internal consistency and "core integrity," but doesn't quite have the pizazz of either.

Now while I find Elminster and Drizzt both mildly annoying, I haven't read a FR novel in like 20 years, so the "novel-dependency" doesn't bother me because even if and how it influences the RPG products, I'm in ignorance as to how it does.

But I also never use pre-published settings in games - I just like reading them.

As a side note, I'm not sure there was much point in having this poll go five days. We're getting a few more votes trickle in, but not many.

 

[TerraDave]

Lan-"that said, the poll should have had 1e FR, 3e FR and 4e FR as separate options as they are so different"-efan

Well, thats key, isn't it. If you had people review the first FR boxed set and the classic Greyhawk one, FR could win that. Or respective dragon magazine articles by Gygax or Greenwood from the early 80s. Greenwood could win.

But that's not what either is. Greyhawk, for all that was done to it in the 2E era, is still closely associated with a lot of classic modules and 1E style and detail. FR, on the other hand, is a design by committee behemoth that has been all over the place and managed to annoy, disappoint, or just bore a lot of people along the way, even if they liked particular bits of it.

 

[Ahnehnois]

I don't get the FR hate. I get (even though I don't necessarily share to a strong extent) the Drizzt hate and the Elminster hate and the Spellplague hate, but to me, FR is a setting, not a plot or a group of characters. When I think of FR, I think of a lot of beautiful, well-written campaign setting books, and I think of the Baldur's Gate games.

I see a lot of positives in FR. The distinctive D&D elements (classes, races, spells, etc.) are strongly integrated into the setting. The diversity in cultures represents interesting real-world elements. There is a ton of information available if you want it. Since I don't feel compelled to use things if I don't want them, I don't see what the big deal is. Then again, I never really run published settings, I just use them as inspiration.

 

[DMZ2112]

I don't get the FR hate. I get (even though I don't necessarily share to a strong extent) the Drizzt hate and the Elminster hate and the Spellplague hate, but to me, FR is a setting, not a plot or a group of characters. When I think of FR, I think of a lot of beautiful, well-written campaign setting books, and I think of the Baldur's Gate games.

I think you hit the nail right on the head here. When it comes to the importance of narrative to setting in a "traditional" fantasy world, Forgotten Realms is the middle child, between Dragonlance and Greyhawk. To people who actually play in FR, I think it looks more like GH than DL, because the games and novels and characters and world events probably don't substantially impact your individualized play experience. But to people looking at it from outside, FR looks more like DL than GH, because the stories are such a pervasive presence in the hobby at large. And it is really easy to let your opinion of the metaplot color your opinion of FR.

Greyhawk, on the other hand, just looks like a map to the outside world. It's hard to hate a map.

So you're going to see skewing in one direction irrespective of actual setting content.

 

[Ahnehnois]

Oddly enough, when I think Dragonlance I do think of Raistlin and Caramon, because other than stories about those two and the kender, nothing ever really stuck in my head about that setting.

I do, however, tend to agree that Greyhawk is just a map to most people. There's a bit more than that, but not much from my perspective.

 

[DMZ2112]

Oddly enough, when I think Dragonlance I do think of Raistlin and Caramon, because other than stories about those two and the kender, nothing ever really stuck in my head about that setting.

That's exactly my point. Greyhawk is to Forgotten Realms as Forgotten Realms is to Dragonlance. I think everybody had a stronger connection to the Heroes of the Lance than to Krynn itself. Forgotten Realms is more of a split. I doubt anyone plays Greyhawk /because/ of Mordenkainen.

Even in the video games -- in FR video games iconics make cameo appearances. In the DL games you're either playing as the Heroes of the Lance or they are major NPCs. ...I don't think there are any Greyhawk video games. Does Temple of Elemental Evil count?

The three settings have very different approaches to story, and the community's perceptions of those stories therefore have a very different impact on each setting's popularity.

I do, however, tend to agree that Greyhawk is just a map to most people. There's a bit more than that, but not much from my perspective.

Most roleplayers have never even /heard/ of Gord the Rogue.

 

[3catcircus]

I think you hit the nail right on the head here. When it comes to the importance of narrative to setting in a "traditional" fantasy world, Forgotten Realms is the middle child, between Dragonlance and Greyhawk. To people who actually play in FR, I think it looks more like GH than DL, because the games and novels and characters and world events probably don't substantially impact your individualized play experience. But to people looking at it from outside, FR looks more like DL than GH, because the stories are such a pervasive presence in the hobby at large. And it is really easy to let your opinion of the metaplot color your opinion of FR.

Greyhawk, on the other hand, just looks like a map to the outside world. It's hard to hate a map.

So you're going to see skewing in one direction irrespective of actual setting content.

FR novels? In my campaigns using FR, none of the novels is canon. Problem solved.

 

[Mercurius]

The novels are to the FR kind of like what a bad cover picture is to a book: potentially distracting if the art is poor and you let it bother you, but ultimately has no bearing to the content of the book itself....that is, aside from the degree that the novels impact the setting as published in RPG books.

People love the gray box because, aside from the inclusion of the Moonshae Isles, is entirely unsullied by the novels. The later books, including the hallowed 3e hardcover, are impacted by the Time of Troubles, but that was relatively minimal. Interestingly enough, with the 4e it was actually the other way around, afaik - setting design guided and influenced the novels.

All in all the novels don't bother me. I read the Moonshae books, the early Drizzt books and one or two of the earliest novels, but I out-grew them in the early 90s in my late teens. I think I got turned off by two things: reading Legacy, or which I became entirely sick of reading about how kewl Drizzt was, and one of the Greenwood novels in which a sex scene between Elminster and the Simbul was just laughable. I'd rather read Tolkien's out-takes about Gandalf and Galadriel getting it on, or the adventures of Elrond through Gay Middle-earth (Gayrond?).