{Settings Tournament} Round 3...And then there were Eight

[DMZ2112]

FR novels? In my campaigns using FR, none of the novels is canon. Problem solved.

::befuddled:: That... is exactly my point. If you play FR, you can do this. You probably do this.

But if you don't play FR, there's no reason to separate the novels from the setting material. They're both clearly branded FR. Thus, a greater portion of non-FR players will have a negative opinion of FR than non-GH players will have of GH. Because GH has no high profile metaplot. Most non-GH players just never develop an opinion about GH beyond generalized nostalgia.

aside from the inclusion of the Moonshae Isles

FORGIVEN.

 

[seregil]

The novels are to the FR kind of like what a bad cover picture is to a book: potentially distracting if the art is poor and you let it bother you, but ultimately has no bearing to the content of the book itself....that is, aside from the degree that the novels impact the setting as published in RPG books.

People love the gray box because, aside from the inclusion of the Moonshae Isles, is entirely unsullied by the novels. The later books, including the hallowed 3e hardcover, are impacted by the Time of Troubles, but that was relatively minimal. Interestingly enough, with the 4e it was actually the other way around, afaik - setting design guided and influenced the novels.

All in all the novels don't bother me. I read the Moonshae books, the early Drizzt books and one or two of the earliest novels, but I out-grew them in the early 90s in my late teens. I think I got turned off by two things: reading Legacy, or which I became entirely sick of reading about how kewl Drizzt was, and one of the Greenwood novels in which a sex scene between Elminster and the Simbul was just laughable. I'd rather read Tolkien's out-takes about Gandalf and Galadriel getting it on, or the adventures of Elrond through Gay Middle-earth (Gayrond?).

Post reported to the mods for instilling troubling mental image of old people having sex in my mind and/or making me see Elrond as being gay and never being able to unsee that image. The bill for the mental bleach will be sent soon.

*shudder*

 

[Mercurius]

Post reported to the mods for instilling troubling mental image of old people having sex in my mind and/or making me see Elrond as being gay and never being able to unsee that image. The bill for the mental bleach will be sent soon.

*shudder*

I hope that when I'm an old person I will still be having sex.

 

[Balesir]

I hope that when I'm an old person I will still be having sex.

Boy, I admire your stamina...

But, to the FR/PS question, I voted Planescape, not because of any hate of FR, but because I simply found the concepts, the ideas and the majestic scope of PS to outstrip FR in every way. FR I have played in and it has lots of cool areas, but Planescape just ties the entire cosmology together in a way that makes it possible to adventure there.

 

[steeldragons]

FR novels? In my campaigns using FR, none of the novels is canon. Problem solved.

Indeed. It is quizzical for me...Serious question: When [in the game's history] did "it's in the books" become tantamount to "it has to be this way in the game"???

The novels are to the FR kind of like what a bad cover picture is to a book: potentially distracting if the art is poor and you let it bother you, but ultimately has no bearing to the content of the book itself....that is, aside from the degree that the novels impact the setting as published in RPG books.

People love the gray box because, aside from the inclusion of the Moonshae Isles, is entirely unsullied by the novels. The later books, including the hallowed 3e hardcover, are impacted by the Time of Troubles, but that was relatively minimal. Interestingly enough, with the 4e it was actually the other way around, afaik - setting design guided and influenced the novels.

All in all the novels don't bother me. I read the Moonshae books, the early Drizzt books and one or two of the earliest novels, but I out-grew them in the early 90s in my late teens. I think I got turned off by two things: reading Legacy, or which I became entirely sick of reading about how kewl Drizzt was, and one of the Greenwood novels in which a sex scene between Elminster and the Simbul was just laughable. I'd rather read Tolkien's out-takes about Gandalf and Galadriel getting it on, or the adventures of Elrond through Gay Middle-earth (Gayrond?).

There's a gay Elrond?! Not that it bothers me at all...I've kinda always held the view that elves (whether Tolkien-esque or standard D&D) are fairly "free love" kinda folks. This has been reinforced throughout the editions, I think...Between the standardized "Chaotic Good" alignment [a standard of freedom/individuality/love], their reputation for "frivolity" [included from B/X on through], the "gender-ambiguity" of OotS [fairly omni-present from descriptions of multiple editions], the innuendos of ElfQuest, or the more subtle "reverence of beauty and love" that has always been espoused for D&D elves, I have always viewed elves as being "gay/bi" and interested in the act and emotion of "love" and/or "beauty" and not so much concerned with the "human definitions" or acceptability of same.

Elves aren't "gay." They're elves and homosexual unions [if the attraction, beauty, love, respect and appreciation are there] are not a taboo in any way. Somewhat ironically, for me, this lent to a degree of "elves as alien" for many if not most of my players...which is always desirable.

[I will just add in the aside that, having never read the books, I very much wish I did not have an image of Elminster and the Suimbul "getting it on" in my head. Thanks for that...a bit more wine oughtta take care of that. lol. ]

 

[DMZ2112]

Indeed. It is quizzical for me...Serious question: When [in the game's history] did "it's in the books" become tantamount to "it has to be this way in the game"???

I don't think I'm making myself understood.

I think D&D players and dungeon masters who make use of the Forgotten Realms setting material have a tendency to ignore the metaplot because at best it interferes with their personal experience of the Realms. If these D&D players and dungeon masters have a negative opinion of the metaplot, it does not affect their positive opinion of the setting material. They therefore vote in favor of Forgotten Realms in this poll.

I think D&D players and dungeon masters who DO NOT make use of the Forgotten Realms setting material have no reason to separate the setting material from the metaplot in their minds, and therefore have a tendency to lump them together. If these D&D players and dungeon masters have a negative opinion of the metaplot, it will affect their opinion of the setting material negatively. They therefore vote against Forgotten Realms in this poll.

By contrast, Greyhawk has no metaplot to speak of. Non-Greyhawk users are not likely to have a positive or a negative opinion regarding the Greyhawk setting material, resulting in fewer votes /against/ Greyhawk.

In short, for the most part, Forgotten Realms is contending against people voting for Planescape as well as for people voting against Forgotten Realms, while Greyhawk is only contending against people voting for Mystara.

It was never my intention to suggest that the metaplot has to be taken part and parcel with the setting material. Only that individuals unfamiliar with the setting on the whole probably do this /by default/.

Elves aren't "gay." They're elves and homosexual unions [if the attraction, beauty, love, respect and appreciation are there] are not a taboo in any way. Somewhat ironically, for me, this lent to a degree of "elves as alien" for many if not most of my players...which is always desirable.

I can see this for eladrin/high elves. Elves/wood elves' strong connection to nature lends itself to as substantial a heterosexual bias as humans', if not one that is potentially even greater. But it's really up to the dungeon master. There is definitely real-world evidence of homosexual and transgender behavior in ancient cultures with a strong veneration of nature.

[I will just add in the aside that, having never read the books, I very much wish I did not have an image of Elminster and the Simbul "getting it on" in my head.

Yeah, it's not so much their age as it is... all that beard.

 

[Mercurius]

But, to the FR/PS question, I voted Planescape, not because of any hate of FR, but because I simply found the concepts, the ideas and the majestic scope of PS to outstrip FR in every way. FR I have played in and it has lots of cool areas, but Planescape just ties the entire cosmology together in a way that makes it possible to adventure there.

I kinda agree with this, or at least could go either way on the two, but...I voted for the FR because, in the end, I find myself biased towards a more earthly, traditional setting (plus there were a few things about PS that always annoyed me, like "berk").

elves...

....are polyamorous? Sounds right.

 

[Imaro]

.
But, to the FR/PS question, I voted Planescape, not because of any hate of FR, but because I simply found the concepts, the ideas and the majestic scope of PS to outstrip FR in every way. FR I have played in and it has lots of cool areas, but Planescape just ties the entire cosmology together in a way that makes it possible to adventure there.

Yep this pretty much sums up how and why I voted the way I did in PS vs. FR. It's not that I hate the FR it's that I really like PS for many of the reasons above, as well as others, and really just feel "meh" about the FR.

 

[3catcircus]

I don't think I'm making myself understood.

I think D&D players and dungeon masters who make use of the Forgotten Realms setting material have a tendency to ignore the metaplot because at best it interferes with their personal experience of the Realms. If these D&D players and dungeon masters have a negative opinion of the metaplot, it does not affect their positive opinion of the setting material. They therefore vote in favor of Forgotten Realms in this poll.

I think D&D players and dungeon masters who DO NOT make use of the Forgotten Realms setting material have no reason to separate the setting material from the metaplot in their minds, and therefore have a tendency to lump them together. If these D&D players and dungeon masters have a negative opinion of the metaplot, it will affect their opinion of the setting material negatively. They therefore vote against Forgotten Realms in this poll.

By contrast, Greyhawk has no metaplot to speak of. Non-Greyhawk users are not likely to have a positive or a negative opinion regarding the Greyhawk setting material, resulting in fewer votes /against/ Greyhawk.

In short, for the most part, Forgotten Realms is contending against people voting for Planescape as well as for people voting against Forgotten Realms, while Greyhawk is only contending against people voting for Mystara.

It was never my intention to suggest that the metaplot has to be taken part and parcel with the setting material. Only that individuals unfamiliar with the setting on the whole probably do this /by default/.

The issue, though, is that many D&D players who have a negative view of FR because of the novels have likely never been in a position of playing in a FR campaign that didn't view the novels as canon - all we ever hear from such detractors is they hate FR because of all the high-level NPCs running around lording it over the PCs. There is no giant metaplot in FR, merely a bunch of different unconnected things happening in different novels. If you never read any of the novels, you'd never be exposed to the exploits of such NPCs unless the DM chose to include them in his or her campaign. The entry in the 3e FRCS for Shadowdale only states that there is an important site called Elminster's Tower and that he is likely the most powerful mortal in Faerun who is a recluse. Ok - powerful how? Unless you look at his stats (in a different location in the book) and choose to use them as-is, that is up to you, the DM, to decide. You can go the route of the novels, or maybe he is simply an oligarch... Or maybe you just focus on the part about him being a recluse in which case he never makes an appearance at all. This is much different than the metaplot in the TORG RPG or the Shadowforce Archer campaign for SPYCRAFT which was purposely engineered for the RPG - in the case of TORG, the metaplot was actually shaped by the results of home campaigns reporting the results of their exploits in each of the published adventures and they specifically delineated "these metaplot points are facts, these OTHER metaplot points are rumors throughout a series of metaplot communiques and several campaign setting updates.

You can be sure if there was as large a library of Greyhawk novels, there would be Greyhawk detractors at a similar rate because Gord the Rogue or Robilar or Mordenkainen are lording it over the PCs - looking at the Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk adventure, Mordenkainen's description reads very similarly to Elminster - "...one of the most powerful wizards to walk the Oerth..." Heck - all of the "named" core D&D spells are due to these Greyhawk NPCs - Mordenkainen's Sword, Leomund's Tiny Hut, Otiluke's Resilient Sphere, Otto's Irresistible Dance, Bigby's Grasping Hand, Tenser's Floating Disk, etc.

That there may or may not be stats for powerful NPCs or that NPCs are doing one thing or another should be irrelevant to players because that information is intended for the DMs eyes only unless and until the DM chooses to involve the NPCs in his campaign. The *only* time I ever involved Elminster in any of my FR campaigns, I made him purposely MIA and just a "historian in this small village a week's travel away." and I've never involved Drizzt.

 

[DMZ2112]

You can be sure if there was as large a library of Greyhawk novels, there would be Greyhawk detractors at a similar rate because Gord the Rogue or Robilar or Mordenkainen are lording it over the PCs

Yes. That's the point I've been making.