Settings you want to like

[Glyfair]

It's more like:

There's a vampire king, but its a 'good' vampire king.
There's a hobgoblin leader, but its a 'good' hobgoblin leader.
There's a coven of hag who rule, but its a 'good' coven of hags who rule.
There's a gnomish secret society, but its a 'good' gnomish secret society.
There's a high priest, but she's a 'good' high priest.

I don't think he's a "good" vampire king. He's just good in comparison to Vol. After all

Spoiler

he's had his grandson imprisoned solely to take his place and run his kingdom.

I don't see how you consider it a "good" coven of hags who rule. There is a slight tendancy towards neutrality. They certainly aren't good. Indeed,

Spoiler

one of the most widespread criminal organizations is run by one of them (and it's not a "good" criminal organization, either dealing in a brisk drug trade among other unsavory things).

While there is a "good" high priest, she's pretty much the chosen for her religion. However, there is plenty of corruption in the organization she leads. Also, even the "good" things the religion does is certainly borderline at times.

Yes, all of the people you mention aren't BBEG. Oddly enough, they seem to want their kingdom's to prosper. The hobgoblin uses threats of force to keep his "subjects" in line. He's made pacts of peace with surrounding countries because he recognizes they could crush him if they didn't.

In general, in Eberron, I think the major players are deliberately set up as gray areas (some darker than others, some lighter). Having a straightforward evil ruler that no PC should ever want to deal with would be too cliche' for this setting (at least cliche' in a way the setting isn't directed). There area few exceptions (the Daelkyr, the Quori), but they are reasonably few. Even the obvious targets have their good points (the Lord of Blades, for example).

 

[GSHamster]

While there is a "good" high priest, she's pretty much the chosen for her religion. However, there is plenty of corruption in the organization she leads. Also, even the "good" things the religion does is certainly borderline at times.

Part of my problem is that I need a better word than 'good'. I'm not meaning it in the alignment sense. I'm kind of meaning it in the 'better them than the people lower in the hierarchy' sense.

For example, it's in the PCs interests to keep the hobgoblin king in power, because he's better than the alternatives. Similarly, it's in the PC's interests to keep the vampire in power because he's better than the alternatives. Same thing with the hags, or the king in Breland, or the great druid, or the Trust, or high priest of the Silver Flame girl, or pretty much every other ruler.

That just seems a bit weird to me.

 

[Old Fezziwig]

Part of my problem is that I need a better word than 'good'. I'm not meaning it in the alignment sense. I'm kind of meaning it in the 'better them than the people lower in the hierarchy' sense.

For example, it's in the PCs interests to keep the hobgoblin king in power, because he's better than the alternatives. Similarly, it's in the PC's interests to keep the vampire in power because he's better than the alternatives. Same thing with the hags, or the king in Breland, or the great druid, or the Trust, or high priest of the Silver Flame girl, or pretty much every other ruler.

That just seems a bit weird to me.

But that's part and parcel of a quasi-noir setting (and if it lists its influences as The Big Sleep and/or The Maltese Falcon, it's definitely headed towards noir a bit, even it's not quite there). Part of the problem with the world in those movies and novels is that the status quo, even if its not a good thing, is often better than change. Kind of a best of a bad situation type of deal. Characters that try and change the world often find that there's not much they can do (i.e., Jake Gittes in Chinatown — he gets there too late) and that what they can do often ends up not working out at all ("Forget it, Jake, it's Chinatown"). At least this is my understanding and experience with noir films and fiction.

Nick

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

For example, it's in the PCs interests to keep the hobgoblin king in power, because he's better than the alternatives.

Only if the PCs think a united and - for the moment - peaceful goblinoid nation is a good thing.

I think the rest kind of follow the same logic flow, however.

EDIT:

Also, what the lion said.

 

[DMH]

I dunno. Do any of the other settings you run have gods? How do your players kill the evil gods in those settings?

They don't. If any mortal was stupid enough to challenge a god, they would be instantly blasted into nothingness, if the god notices the mortal at all.

Maybe your win won't be pushing your sword into Izrador's helmet right after he arises (a la Eowyn with the Witch King)

Izrador isn't an undead human, nor is he a powerful spirit tied to an item (Sauron), nor is he a fallen angel (Morgoth), he is a god (Iluvatar). Do you really think Eowyn could fight Iluvatar?

 

[Glyfair]

Part of my problem is that I need a better word than 'good'. I'm not meaning it in the alignment sense. I'm kind of meaning it in the 'better them than the people lower in the hierarchy' sense.

For example, it's in the PCs interests to keep the hobgoblin king in power, because he's better than the alternatives. Similarly, it's in the PC's interests to keep the vampire in power because he's better than the alternatives. Same thing with the hags, or the king in Breland, or the great druid, or the Trust, or high priest of the Silver Flame girl, or pretty much every other ruler.

That just seems a bit weird to me.

I'm not so sure.

Hobgoblin King - What alternatives? The alternative is having a bunch of warring goblin factions. If your worried about travelling through his country, you are probably right. If you are worried about an invasion, it's probably more likely with him in charge, since he has things organized. Without him in charge, the alternative is no one in charge and utter chaos.

Vampire king - This is the easiest. The best person to be in power

Spoiler

is the actual "king" he has imprisoned an is impersonating.

That would be my choice, anyway.

Hags - Pretty similiar to the hobgoblin. The alternative is having no one in charge. In their case, it's a mixed bag. The area is certainly overall safer with them in charge. If you are interested in trade through Drooam, you certainly would prefer that. Otherwise, it's certainly a bigger threat with them in charge.

The Silver Flame - Well, sure, it's better with her in charge. However, how "in charge" is she? She never leaves the temple (since it costs her about 15 levels in ability and makes her very vulnerable), so it's her underlings you have to deal with. I can certainly see her sheltered from whatever is actually going on, if it's so desribed.

 

[Mystery Man]

Izrador isn't an undead human, nor is he a powerful spirit tied to an item (Sauron), nor is he a fallen angel (Morgoth), he is a god (Iluvatar). Do you really think Eowyn could fight Iluvatar?

Not to nitpick when you're trying to make a point, but Morgoth was one of the Valar equal to Manwe himself who were second under Illuvatar, demigods if you will. Not that you're point is any less valid but the fallen angel thing would go more towards Sauron since he was a maiar spirit, or angel same as Gandalf.

Saying that, I would think that Izrador would be something akin to Morgoth rather than Illuvatar. If he's more like Illuvatar then there would be no point playing in that setting at all.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

All the mindlessly oppressive warlords got killed over the past century or so.

You mean the rational evil leaders aren't violating the "Evil Overlord" list? Gah!

I like Eberron, but something I think it needed was more nations. I know Keith Baker offered more and it was edited down into the five we have. But it would have felt richer right from the start to have more. As a result, I'm waiting for more Eberron sourcebooks before I think I can get an honest feel for the setting. What is out there now is too broadbrushy and thin for me to take the material confidently into a campaign.

Something I think Eberron could use is a product, make it a few hundred pages, of nothing but sites to adventure in, ready to go for the time-crunched DM to pick up and wing a one-shot adventure night. Set them all over the continent, over the planet, across the planes. Now that we have the core campaign setting book something like the old "Book of Lairs" type accessories, but for Eberron, a new one every year or a single one three times as thick, would be exactly what is called for... got sidetracked... oops...

The setting that tops my charts of settings I want to like is Fading Suns. I have nearly every D20 book published for it. I love everything. But it feels to me that it would make a betting TV series on SciFi or anime series than a roleplaying setting. Getting it to work as a roleplaying setting is something I'm having trouble with despite my enjoyment of it.


Regards,
Eric Anondson

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

You mean the rational evil leaders aren't violating the "Evil Overlord" list? Gah!

The horror!

I like Eberron, but something I think it needed was more nations. I know Keith Baker offered more and it was edited down into the five we have.

Five?

Aundair
Breland
Droaam
Darguun
Eldeen Reaches
Karrnath
Lhazaar Principalities
Mournland
Q'barra
Zilargo

Or do you mean continents?

Argonnessen
Khorvaire
Sarlona
X'endrik
(Dragon one .. Darn!)

 

[DMH]

Not to nitpick when you're trying to make a point, but Morgoth was one of the Valar equal to Manwe himself who were second under Illuvatar, demigods if you will. Not that you're point is any less valid but the fallen angel thing would go more towards Sauron since he was a maiar spirit, or angel same as Gandalf.

I never thought of the Valar as gods, but rather equal to the highest choir of angels, but I see your point.

If he's more like Illuvatar then there would be no point playing in that setting at all.

Exactly. He is a weakened greater god of evil that is slowly building his strength up. Sooner or later he will be back to full strength and nothing will stop him from sucking magic totally out of the planet. And even if he was a lesser god, gods are still not on the same playing field as mortals. They win everytime except in wierd settings like FR.

Which is why I think of Midnight as D&D Call of Cthulhu.