Settle an argument on Taking 10 and Taking 20

[Sebastian Ashputtle]

The D20 Modern core rulebook declares that characters cannot Take 10 on untrained skill checks. It doesn't mention that they can't also Take 20, but presumably it would extend to this as well.

Is this rule in D&D 3.0 and/or 3.5?

 

[Pielorinho]

No, it's not. The only limitations on taking 10 are:
1) You can't do it when distracted or threatened.
2) You can't do it with specific skills, such as Use Magic Device.

You can definitely take 10 on an untrained skill. Even in D20 Modern, I would think you could take 20 on an untrained skill: taking 20 is just a shortcut for rolling 20 times, and there's no reason why you couldn't roll 20 times on an untrained skill, is there?

Daniel

 

[DreamChaser]

There are tons of extra "you can't take 10 if you..." but as far as I can tell, most of them are misinterpretations.

Taking 10 is the law of averages (rounded down). Any time a character is not in a stressful situation, they can do an average job if they want to. There is no skill I would not permit this on, given the lack of stress (although technically UMD is not permitted since there is a specific effect of rolling a 1 that the PTB wanted kept in...i could go either way).

Taking 20 is the joy of repetition. Any time a character can afford to try again and again and again till he finally gets it right, he can Take 20. Thus many skills don't qualify. Crafts (because of use of materials), Knowledge (you know it or you don't), UMD (because of charges/etc), Climb, Jump, and Swim (sometimes it might work but usually the consequence is fairly dire).

Really, it's designed for Appraise, Disguise (provided you have the time before anyone sees you), Decipher Script, Escape Artist, Forgery (although materials could come up in this one), Gather Information, Handle Animal, Listen, Open Lock, Search, Spot, Survival, and Use Rope.

DC

 

[Pielorinho]

Dreamchaser, I believe UMD checks don't allow taking 10 because there's no way to do an average job at it: by the skill's nature, you're trying to "luck out" on the right mental state to activate an item.

For taking 20, you want to look at a couple of things:
1) Is there some obvious consequence of failure? If you're trying to balance atop a pedestal long enough to sing the Star Spangled Banner, at which point the Ancient Artifact of Poobah will materialize in front of you, I'll allow you to take 20 on your balance check: you can fall off as much as you want without penalty. If the pedestal is surrounded by lava, however, it's another story: no taking 20 for you!
2) Are you allowed to try again? Appraise specifically says that "you cannot try again on the same object, regardless of success." You may not take 20 on a skill if you're not allowed to try again on it. Bluff doesn't allow you to retry in a social situation (if you say, "Pizza delivery!" and the lady in her apartment doesn't believe you, you're not going to get in by saying, "Candygram!"), but it does allow you to take 20 in delivering a secret message; you may take 20 in the latter case, but not in the former case. (Unless someone's listening in on the secret message, in which case see rule #1).

Daniel

 

[DreamChaser]

thanks for the clarification. my list of skills (minus appraise) was mostly just a rule of thumb (appraise was a minor brain failure, and I apologize ).

Like I said, take 20 is a matter of trying again. If you can without consequence, then you can take 20.

DC

 

[DreamChaser]

Dreamchaser, I believe UMD checks don't allow taking 10 because there's no way to do an average job at it: by the skill's nature, you're trying to "luck out" on the right mental state to activate an item.

I must say that if this is the case, then it is is not a skill. You cannot train luck. It being a skill, there must be techniques that are learned to help you mimic certain mental states...thus you could average out.

Especially in Eberron, I think UMD would be a specific set of techniques that the Artificers had mastered over the centuries.

DC

 

[UltimaGabe]

Especially in Eberron, I think UMD would be a specific set of techniques that the Artificers had mastered over the centuries.

It is. That's why, at 14th level or so, Artificers get the ability to take 10 on Use Magic Device.

 

[Pielorinho]

I must say that if this is the case, then it is is not a skill. You cannot train luck. It being a skill, there must be techniques that are learned to help you mimic certain mental states...thus you could average out.

That does make sense; at the same time, I see why they made it so you can't take 10. It seems more random to me than other skills. I just sort of go with the flow on this one .

Daniel

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

I wouldn't allow you to Take 10 when using a Gambling skill either. It is certainly a skill. It certainly requires luck, too.

 

[argo]

I allow Take 20 on Craft checks so long as the player is willing to pay the mateirals cost 20 times.

Also note: a common misconception (or at least I encounter it a lot) is that Take 10 requires 10x the ammount of time as a single ckill check, it only requires the time needed to make one skill check. Take 20 does require twenty times the time because you actually are performing the action repeatedly.