Shade Race from Dragon #307...ECL +2!?!

[kreynolds]

If the ability scores were truly equally useful, then I'd be more comfortable using your system where each has a roughly equal ECL value.

Well, perhaps the best course of action would be to determine, what each ability score is worth based upon its usefulness in the game, with a starting point for each one at 0.125. Could be a pain though.

I guess we're stuck doing a case by case for everything...

That's what happens all the time, regardless of the system used. Its just a question of how much grunt work you want to do.

which is why you started this thread to begin with. Doh.

Exactly.

 

[kreynolds]

I'll argue the Intelligence point with you. Charisma I waffle on -- hack and slash, for non-sorcs or clerics, or to an extent paladins, yeah, it's not so useful. But Intelligence?

"Okay, roll a Spot check."
"I, uh, don't have Spot."
"Huh? Why not?"
"Well, with my Intelligence modifier, I've only got two skill points a level, and Spot wasn't one of the two I chose..."

First of all, if you are only receiving two skill points per level, then you are playing a fighter-type character. Fighter-types rely on combat prowess, not skills. They hit stuff really hard. They don't play "scout". Intelligence is a dump stat for them. That's the bottom line.

Intelligence serves well for classes that actually need it, such as the Bard, Rogue, and Wizard, for example.

Skills are important, at least in the games I've played in.

Less so and more so, depending on the class. Skills are worth next to nothing for a fighter, and they are everything for a rogue.

You get an AC bonus, an extra skill point, a lower Will save (why did no one mention this?)...

Because it isn't necessary to do so. Getting the AC bonus, the extra skill point, and the lower Will save are part and parcel of getting a +2 bonus to Dexterity and Intelligence, so specifically making mention of them is superfluous.

Oh, and as for the Shade, I'd stick it at +1 ECL.

Same here. The ethereal and ghost touch stuff is cool, but not that cool.

 

[kreynolds]

The Shade in Races of Faerun has an ECL of +4.

That is an entirely different Shade (specific to the Forgottem Realms Campaign Setting). The shade this thread is addressing is from Dragon Magazine. Its very different.

 

[kreynolds]

If you are trying to figure out ECL formulas, maybe you should try it with "Bonus Squared" numbers, like it is used in most Magic Item Formulas. (+32 bonus to strength will be 256 more expensive than a +2 bonus to strength...)

Well, one thing I keep in mind for ability score bonuses, from a design point of view, is the number of hit die of the creature. You never want any one ability or feature of a creature to dominate its CR. For example, a 1 hit die creature with a Strength of 80 and DR 20/+10 isn't a well balanced creature.

The guideline I use (actually Upper_Krust's guideline from his up and coming Immortal's Handbook) is that no ability score should exceed one-quarter the number of hit die + 18 of the base creature. For example, a 12 hit die creature should not have any ability scores over 21. If the creatuer has an ability score that high, it begins to dominate its CR or ECL.

But, I do get what you're saying. However, the problem is this; while having a 26 strength at 6th level is awfully powerful, and quite deserving of an ECL modifier, a 26 strength at 20th level is about the norm, so an ECL modifier is no longer warranted. Its just like having spell resistance of a static amount. A drow's spell resistance is useful throughout its career, but if your SR is static at 15, its only useful for so long. At some point, the ECL modifier for that SR is no longer warranted. For situations like this, you have two choices; 1) You can take into account that the static SR will only be useful for a limited period of time and reduce its initial ECL modifier accordingly, or 2) you can 'charge' the full amount of the ECL modifier, but then credit it back later when the static SR is no longer useful.

Some of this stuff can get weird.

 

[AuraSeer]

First of all, if you are only receiving two skill points per level, then you are playing a fighter-type character.

Or a sorcerer. Even a human Sor needs a positive Int modifier if he wants decent skills.

Note that when you only have a d4 hit die, failing a Ride or Balance check can be fatal...

 

[kreynolds]

Or a sorcerer.

You know, I have _never_ understood that. Ah well.

Note that when you only have a d4 hit die, failing a Ride or Balance check can be fatal...

Lets not talk about that, ok?

 

[Shard O'Glase]

A +2 to int might be nice for a wizard, but I doubt I would see many people willing to give up two levels of spellcasting ability for it. Once you hit higher levels, there are so many ways to increase ability scores that I doubt it would even be noticeable.
Also, since their ghost tough abilities don't apply to spells, almost all of the other benefits of the race are lost to wizards as well.

I think this race could easily be set at ECL +1.

I agree it should be +1. My point has been +2 int +2 dex for wizards/rogues is a great benefit on it own. I place the stat benefits at nearly a +1ecl on their own. Not a +1 but close to it. Add it ethereal crap, and you solidly into +1, but it would be a really weak +2.

 

[drnuncheon]

But, I do get what you're saying. However, the problem is this; while having a 26 strength at 6th level is awfully powerful, and quite deserving of an ECL modifier, a 26 strength at 20th level is about the norm, so an ECL modifier is no longer warranted.

...except that with the same equipment and stuff, you've boosted your strength from a 26 to a 34. The ECL modifier is still justified for the stats, unless you're getting some of those stats from a 'natural' enhancement bonus or some such.

SR, you're right about, because it doesn't stack.

J

 

[kreynolds]

...except that with the same equipment and stuff, you've boosted your strength from a 26 to a 34. The ECL modifier is still justified for the stats...

That's a good point. I should have put forth the fast healing argument instead, seeing as how its very similar to static SR. Ah well, the point was made.

 

[Caredoc]

First of all, if you are only receiving two skill points per level, then you are playing a fighter-type character. Fighter-types rely on combat prowess, not skills. They hit stuff really hard. They don't play "scout". Intelligence is a dump stat for them. That's the bottom line.

So when the party isn't in combat, the fighter types are meant to just stand off to the side and wait until another fight starts?

I know it's a matter of taste, but I don't see how it could be fun to play a character who contributes nothing except fighting.



Also, don't your GMs make you roleplay poor Int and Cha stats? That can be kinda fun, but it can also be very irritating.