Shade Race from Dragon #307...ECL +2!?!

[kreynolds]

That's actually my point. You CAN'T assign a precise number to the ability points, so any number you give them is kind of arbitrary. Even using that 0.125 number will have different results depending on which abilities are modified and to what extent, so balance is always going to need tweaking.

Just like magic item creation and pricing, all numbers are arbitrary to begin with, then you tweak your numbers from there. At +0.125, a +2 to an ability score is +0.25. Working with those numbers right there, I'm fine with it. I don't see the need to tweak it any higher, even if applied to Str or Dex. The higher the numbers get, the more complicated it gets, and more fine tuning is required. But, when the numbers are this low, its fairly simple.

I definitely think that a +2 LA for the Shade race is high, but I don't think that it should be as low as you're thinking either. Just think of all the fun you can have with Ethereal Filchers!

Heh. Well, having little to do with the math, I just don't see what they gain being that cool at all. The math just reinforces my opinion.

Sorry about the +40 STR dig, though. That was kinda playing devil's advocate.

No, no. Don't apologize. You were making a good point.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

But there is a -2 to a stat to offset the +2 to Int. Even if there wasn't though, I don't think that warrants even a +1. Having a +1 Int bonus is nice, but it certainly isn't worth an entire level, not even if you get it for free. Look at it like this; every 4th level you get a free stat increase. It takes two stat increases to get an Int bonus of +1. It takes you 8 levels to get that. 2 divided by 8 is 0.25. So, at the absolute most, a +2 bonus (that stacks with everything) to an ability score would be +0.25, despite what the DMG or Savage Species says.

Sure they got a -2 to offset it but they got it to stats that don't matter for the class. Only a -2 to str instead of wisdom would be a smaller hit for a wizard. +2 to dex and +2 to int makes an almost perfect wizard. About the best you oculd hope for is +2 con +2 int, heck give me a -2 to str,chr, and wis for those stat +s. A +2 to int without a -2 to a stat that means a damn to a wizard is like spellcasting prodigy+ almost for free.

For a wizard a +2 int that stacks with everything that you get frrm level 1 is very close to a +1ecl on its own, a high int just does make a wizards job that much easier. Add in a +2 dex again a great stat for a wizard who wont be wearing armor, and the see etheral ability(the strike etereal is a waste for a wizard)and you easily hit the +1ecl. I don't think it crosses the 1.5 mark making it +2ecl, but +1 easily IMO.

 

[kreynolds]

Sure they got a -2 to offset it but they got it to stats that don't matter for the class. Only a -2 to str instead of wisdom would be a smaller hit for a wizard. +2 to dex and +2 to int makes an almost perfect wizard. About the best you oculd hope for is +2 con +2 int, heck give me a -2 to str,chr, and wis for those stat +s. A +2 to int without a -2 to a stat that means a damn to a wizard is like spellcasting prodigy+ almost for free.

ECL does not change based upon class. It doesn't work that way. ECL is a measure of power based upon the average power of any given character level.

For a wizard a +2 int that stacks with everything that you get frrm level 1 is very close to a +1ecl on its own...

This is not correct at all, and here's why. Take a 4th level wizard. Upon achieving 4th level, he gets an ability score increase due to character level, and he uses it to increase his Intelligence by +1. Now, at 8th level, he gets another increase and uses it to increase his Intelligence by yet another +1. His total Intelligence bonus is now +2, but what you are saying is that because he received that bonus, he now gains ECL +1, meaning he is now treated as a 9th level character.

It doesn't matter if he got the +2 bonus at 1st level or 8th level. The end result is the same, and the end result is that a +2 bonus to an ability score is worth only one-quarter of a character level, at the most. To put it into perspective though, a fighter's bonus feat isn't even worth that much of a character level, so you couldn't squeeze that into one of their feats. I just thought that was kinda neat.

Anyways, when you're only talking about a +2 bonus, its fairly easy to keep ECL in perspective. As the numbers get higher, it gets more difficult, but when they're this low, its not that bad.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

no its not the same thign because those +1 every 4 come with every class, and are built into the level system. A +2 from your race is outisde the level system and gives a signifigant benefit well beyone the +1 every 4 levels formula.

And "ECL does not change based upon class. It doesn't work that way. ECL is a measure of power based upon the average power of any given character level." As uderstand it yes ECL doesn't change by class, but detemining ECL is based signifigantly on the best class for the benefits, not the average.

 

[Arcturus_Rugend]

Take a 4th level wizard. Upon achieving 4th level, he gets an ability score increase due to character level, and he uses it to increase his Intelligence by +1. Now, at 8th level, he gets another increase and uses it to increase his Intelligence by yet another +1. His total Intelligence bonus is now +2, but what you are saying is that because he received that bonus, he now gains ECL +1, meaning he is now treated as a 9th level character.

I don't think your argument about increasing ECL works when applied to ability increases due to leveling, because all characters receive ability points at the same rate. If all classes and races receive those points, they are effectively balanced, so it won't cause an ECL issue.

[Edit: Doh. Shard beat me to it.]

 

[kreynolds]

no its not the same thign because those +1 every 4 come with every class, and are built into the level system. A +2 from your race is outisde the level system and gives a signifigant benefit well beyone the +1 every 4 levels formula.

I already took this into account, and because this bonus is outside the level system, that's why it has an ECL modifier in the first place. I just don't think the bonus itself warrants a modifier as high as +1. Not at all.

Basically, what you are saying is that +2 to Int is equal to an entire Wizard level, and that is simply not true in any way, shape, or form, as it takes four wizard levels to get even a +1.

As uderstand it yes ECL doesn't change by class, but detemining ECL is based signifigantly on the best class for the benefits, not the average.

To an extent, but you are determining ECL based upon a single class without even taking the rest of the classes into consideration. Its a very limited perspective.

 

[Arcturus_Rugend]

If you value non-physical stats as 0.125, what do you value physical stats to be worth? By the RAW, they're supposed to be roughly double. This contradicts the 1 point for 4 levels idea.

 

[kreynolds]

I don't think your argument about increasing ECL works when applied to ability increases due to leveling, because all characters receive ability points at the same rate. If all classes and races receive those points, they are effectively balanced, so it won't cause an ECL issue.

The ability score increases you get from character level are factored into each and every level of each and every class. It represents a small portion of every single class level. In other words, having access to those increases actually reduces the amount of power you can get from class features at a given level, because some of that level's power has already been allocated to ability score increases from character level. Those ability score increases already have an ECL value assigned to them. It just so happens that that value, when added to the rest of the features of a class level, bring that particular class level to an ECL of 1. In the end, this means that when you gain your next level, your ECL goes up by 1, with your ECL being equal to your CL.

Precisely because not all classes and races receive this extra ability bonus is why it effects ECL, which is why it has a modifier. The question here is what the modifier should be. I just don't think +2 to an ability score is worth an entire level, no matter what class you're talking about.

 

[kreynolds]

If you value non-physical stats as 0.125, what do you value physical stats to be worth?

I never said I valued non-physical stats a 0.125. Actually, I value all stats at 0.125. Charisma can be the exception though, as previously mentioned.

By the RAW, they're supposed to be roughly double.

According to who and what? Are you referring to the DMG? If so, I'm well aware of the values presented in there, but this particular discussion goes beyond simple math and into the realm of reason.

 

[Murrdox]

As a non-dragon magazine subscriber, can someone explain to me what this thing is?

You keep calling it a Shade, but it doesn't sound like the Shade from FR.

Is this more like a Shadow creature or something?