Shades, Teleport, & Planar Binding

[Particle_Man]

Unlike Shadow Magic and Demi-Shadow Magic, it seems that Shades can duplicate *any* lower level Conjuration spell on the Sorcerer's spell list. This would include Teleport and Planar Binding.

So first, is that right?

Second, would that result in Teleports that have an 80% chance of working?

Third, would that result in a Planar Binding on a real outsider that has an 80% chance of being effective, or a Planar Binding on a shadowy duplicate of an outsider that is 80% as powerful? If that latter, is any gift required with the Binding, or is it just an illusion of a gift for the illusion of an outsider?

 

[Eldritch_Lord]

So first, is that right?

It is; you'll notice that both greater shadow conjuration and shades say "as shadow conjuration, except..." but GSC repeats the restriction on subschools while shades does not.

Second, would that result in Teleports that have an 80% chance of working?

By default, yes. However, note that any character may choose to fail any save, so in addition to intentionally failing the Will save that would stop them being teleported, a character could intentionally fail the Will save that would make it only partially real. The quasireality only becomes a problem if you're trying to teleport an unwilling target.

Third, would that result in a Planar Binding on a real outsider that has an 80% chance of being effective, or a Planar Binding on a shadowy duplicate of an outsider that is 80% as powerful? If that latter, is any gift required with the Binding, or is it just an illusion of a gift for the illusion of an outsider?

The latter, just like a shadow conjured summon monster I summons a shadow creature. Whether summoning or calling, shadow spells only access the Plane of Shadow, so they couldn't call actual creatures. No real creature, no real gift.

 

[SolitonMan]

Unlike Shadow Magic and Demi-Shadow Magic, it seems that Shades can duplicate *any* lower level Conjuration spell on the Sorcerer's spell list. This would include Teleport and Planar Binding.

So first, is that right?

Second, would that result in Teleports that have an 80% chance of working?

Third, would that result in a Planar Binding on a real outsider that has an 80% chance of being effective, or a Planar Binding on a shadowy duplicate of an outsider that is 80% as powerful? If that latter, is any gift required with the Binding, or is it just an illusion of a gift for the illusion of an outsider?

Honestly, I think it's easier to adjudicate if you simply rule that the school limitations of shadow conjuration still apply. If you're powerful enough to cast Shades in the first place, why do you need to use it as a nerfed, glitchy version of lower-level spells?

If, on the other hand, you're trying to leverage this as a player maximizing your power, then it's certainly open to all kinds of interpretation via the lazy writing of the spell description in RAW. (I say "lazy" because the authors at WotC could have added a few sentences to clarify that (a) it's not limited to sub-school [e.g. - "unlike shadow conjuration, shades can mimic any conjuration..."] and (b) explain exactly how the shades version of calling and/or teleportation would work).

 

[Sepulchrave II]

There is no *any* in the description of shades; it merely says:

"This spell functions like shadow conjuration, except that it mimics sorcerer and wizard conjuration spells of 8th level or lower." (3.5PHB, p.276)

I think the intention is to restrict it in the same manner as shadow conjuration.

Calling an 80% real pit fiend (100% real if the target fails its Will save) as a standard action seems a tad unreasonable: I think you need to haggle with your compactees or cast a gate and cough up the XP.

 

[Eldritch_Lord]

There is no *any* in the description of shades; it merely says:

"This spell functions like shadow conjuration, except that it mimics sorcerer and wizard conjuration spells of 8th level or lower." (3.5PHB, p.276)

I think the intention is to restrict it in the same manner as shadow conjuration.

Consider:

Shadow conjuration can mimic any sorcerer or wizard conjuration (summoning) or conjuration (creation) spell of 3rd level or lower.

This spell functions like shadow conjuration, except that it can duplicate any sorcerer or wizard conjuration (summoning) or conjuration (creation) spell of 6th level or lower.

This spell functions like shadow conjuration, except that it mimics sorcerer and wizard conjuration spells of 8th level or lower.

If they wanted to limit the types of conjuration spells for shades, they easily could have done so; they did it for greater shadow conjuration, and copy-pasting that again for shades isn't hard.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

If they wanted to limit the types of conjuration spells for shades, they easily could have done so; they did it for greater shadow conjuration, and copy-pasting that again for shades isn't hard.

Nor is an oversight difficult to imagine. I think the ambiguity is evident - in which case I would tend to err on the side of a more balanced and reasonable interpretation. Shades is already powerful and versatile - even for a 9th-level spell. You can duplicate half of the spells of arguably the most robust school.

You can already trap the soul - presumably without an expensive component - because someone unfortunately decided that this was a (summoning) spell. Do you really think that maze, plane shift, greater teleport, and greater planar binding were intended to fall within its purview?

How would you even begin to adjudicate greater planar binding using shades? Can you use a magic circle? A dimensional anchor? Do you need to make Charisma checks? Do you need to bargain with the not-creature whose existence you know is unreal? Can you do it all in 1 standard action?

Personally, I find an oversight rather more likely. But YMMV.

 

[Eldritch_Lord]

Personally, I find an oversight rather more likely. But YMMV.

While the proofreading skills of WotC writers are legendary for how bad they are, I still don't think it's simply an oversight. First, there's the copy-paste issue--if it had been left out of both shades and greater shadow conjuration, I'd agree with you, but it being in the less powerful spell and not in the more powerful one implies it was more intentional than not.

Second, it's a 9th-level spell, it's expected that they'll be more powerful than lower-level spells by a good margin. Look at another 9th-level spell, wish. Wish can duplicate any 8th-level or lower spell, not just conjurations (and can even duplicate non-sorcerer/wizard conjurations, so it's better at faking spells than shades is!), and they're completely real, and it can do many other things on top of that. Granted, it does all that for the cost of 5000 XP, but it is so obviously superior to shades that I doubt that 5000 XP is charged just for the ability to make 100% conjurations of any subschool.