Shadorun without the shadowrun rules

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Well we choose to go with SR 4 for a couple of reasons. First it was a new edition, 2nd it won an Ennie and I usally trust the ennie winners. I played SR 3rd ed. once or twice.
Overall it was the mass loads of dice that turned us off. Mass load to hit, mass load to dodge, mass load to resist. Combat seemed to be horribly bogged down.

However 4e seemed to be a step up from 3e

If the dice are the worst, go with 2 rule changes:
4, 5 and 6 count as success, and you can trade in dice for automatic hits at a rate of 2 dice for one hit. Roll never more then 6 dice, trade the rest in. You should probably guarantee that at least 2-4 dice are always rolled.

Playing a guy with Wired Reflexes without multiple actions per round is just lame. SR3 made some adjustments for the sake of balance that were unfortunate but probably necessary (specifically, that everyone gets to go at least once before the ultra-fast guy gets his remaining actions, so he only gets to shoot at the slowpokes twice, rather than 4 or 6 times) but getting rid of multiple actions altogether just turns the game into playing make-believe. You pretend that your character has reflexes three or four times as quick as the human norm, and everyone else more or less humors you even though the rules don't support it.

My approach would be to give an additional bonus to Dodge rolls, and a automatic hit for initiative rolls. I think the cost for reflex enhancement might still be too high, but this would probably work fine for my group.

 

[Greg K]

I
D20 modern was the worse because we first used the vancian magic system which really nerfed the mages then we switched to using warlocks as temp plate that worked a little better..

Have you tried using Elements of Magic: Mythic Earth for magic in your d20M game?

 

[Andor]

The big problem with trying to use d20 Modern or Spycraft or any d20 game really is that starting shadowrun characters are NOT first level characters. Probably closer to 10th really.

I haven't seen 4e but I do like 3e a lot. One tip I'd give to speed up game play is no PC deckers. They spend too much time off in their own little world. An astral mage is at least on a parallel plane and can follow the action of the party, but a decker sucks up loads of game time and no one else get's to participate. It's for the reason that Cybergeneration and 4e went to the 'virtual world is everywhere' model but frankly it's a poor solution IMHO.

A better bet is to have the decker be an NPC, this both speeds play and gives you more narrative control. (IE: The run will never fail at the front door due to unlucky dice. You can still bork the run whenever you want though and make the PC retreat with captain nosebleed over thier shoulder.)

 

[Achan hiArusa]

Just to elaborate on ArM and Cyberpunk:

If you want to play Shadowrun and not use the Shadowrun system, why not go with real cyberpunks and real hermetic mages, just use Cyberpunk and Ars Magica. (yes, for some reason I have Ars Magica on the brain). Now note, I am using the 3rd Edition of Ars Magica and Cyberpunk 2020, so the rules may be different.

Going from test ratings to task difficulties is easy, just add +5 to all Ars Magica ease ratings. Soak is simply one Stopping Power per point, and damage is 1d6 per +5 of attack. The Storyguide/Referee can add Virtues, Flaws, Passions, or Talents as he wishes.

A Hermetic Mage's career list is:

Parma Magica
Certámen
Know Language (Latin)
Enigmatic Wisdom
Expert (Order of Hermes)
Finesse
History (Order of Hermes)
Magic Theory
Penetration
Visions

They may choose pick up skills as normal. They choose 150 points of Techniques and forms as usual and they choose 150 points of spells as usual (chosen as per the ArM rules, not the CP2020 rules). Techniques and Forms can exceed 10 starting. Use of cyberware will penalize both Technique and Form by an amount equal to the EMP loss. I have the Shaman sourcebook so I can use Shamans, you'll just have to find it somewhere else.

So to Metahumans (note minuses also affect maximums, so subtract from 10 to determine highest stat before cyberware augmentation):

Elf: +2 REF, +4 ATTR, Low-light Vision, 30 Points on Career Skills, 1/10 starting money. If the Elf becomes a mage he gets 120 points of Arts and 120 points of spells.
Dwarf: +2 BODY, -2 REF, +2 COOL, +4 to Resist Torture/Drugs, Thermographic Eyes, 34 points on career skills, 1/2 starting money. If the Dwarf becomes a mage he gets 135 points to spend on arts and 135 points of spells.
Ork: +5 BODY, -2 ATTR, -2 INT, Low-light Vision, 34 points on career skills, 1/2 starting money. If the Ork becomes a mage he gets 135 points to spend on arts and 135 points of spells.
Troll: +9 BODY, -2 REF, -4 ATTR, -4 INT, -2 COOL, Extended Reach, Thermographic Eyes, 5 SP dermal armor, 30 Points on Career Skills, 1/10 starting money. If the Troll becomes a mage he gets 120 points of Arts and 120 points of spells.

 

[Clueless]

Sorry Double Post. Actually, the Ars Magica magic system could be easily tweaked for use in Cyberpunk 2020, just add 5 levels to all spells and make damage 1d6 per Body Level.

Ohhh you're *right* It could. I hadn't thought of that.

 

[Clueless]

For the longest time Shadowrun was my favorite game, so I understand your love of the world. I think Palladium might actually be a decent sysem for it, if you're not worried about character creation time. It has cyber and magic rules.

My worry would be - if he's not experienced with the Palladium system - that he might have trouble eyeballing balance amongst the classes and equipment.

 

[Ahzad]

The big problem with trying to use d20 Modern or Spycraft or any d20 game really is that starting shadowrun characters are NOT first level characters. Probably closer to 10th really.

I would agree that d20 modern characters at 1st level aren't Shadowrunners, but disagree that Spycraft characters at 1st level aren't Shadowrunners. The SC 2.0 game is set up that no matter the level the characters are still some of the most competent operators in their field.
Take for example the Hacker, I've seen this class in other systems get owned by a bad die roll against a much weaker opponent, and that shouldn't happen. In SC 2.0 the Hacker's core ability (gained at 1st level) helps to prevent such stuff, he's is supposed to be L33T, and he is very much among the L33T.
L337: You’re among the most gifted computer specialists on the planet. At Level 1, each time you fail a Computers or Falsify check and don’t suffer an error, you still succeed as long as the check DC (or your opponent’s check result) is equal to or less than your class level + 20. If several grades of success are possible, you achieve only the lowest possible positive result.

all the classes are like this in some regard, they are strong in the area that you would expect them to be in, hacker/computers, scout/his stalking ability, sleuth/his ability to read people, ect.

And with rules like the Dramatic Conflicts you can take the Hacker into the field and not drag the party down into a lets sit around and watch the Decker do his thing for the next hour.

 

[Elf Witch]

Have you tried using Elements of Magic: Mythic Earth for magic in your d20M game?

No I have not I will have to take a look at it. I have an idea for a modern game and I want to run with magic but not vancian magic. And I had been fiddling with ways to fix it.

 

[Elf Witch]

That's why one maxes out one's Willpower, both to help with the Combat Pool, and to mess up targeting from the mages. You should also have your mage providing some cover with shielding.

Also, high Willpower helps when you're hitting the elemental over the head with a tree branch, combat axe, or tire iron.

Brad

In all the years I have been playing I have never seen anyone who is a fighter type max out willpower over body. And I have never played with a GM who does it with the NPCs. Or vice versa mage types who max out both body and willpower.

I guess it depends on how you build your character, your starting points and what you are willing to give up to spend the points on it.

But in the end the dice can screw you and you roll all 1s

 

[Graf]

Definiely Mutants and Masterminds.
Fast, easy, simple, flexible.

Good on you for avoiding GURPS.
It's a massive time sink with little return.