Shadorun without the shadowrun rules

[mmu1]

Well we choose to go with SR 4 for a couple of reasons. First it was a new edition, 2nd it won an Ennie and I usally trust the ennie winners. I played SR 3rd ed. once or twice.
Overall it was the mass loads of dice that turned us off. Mass load to hit, mass load to dodge, mass load to resist. Combat seemed to be horribly bogged down.

However 4e seemed to be a step up from 3e

Mhmm. I'd actually say GURPS would be your best bet, but you've already discounted it... maybe give it another look, because like Clueless points out, you can easily get away with only statting out the key NPC abilities. In fact, in a lot of cases just about all you need for an NPC will be the four basic stats, their defenses, a handful of defining skills and advantages / disadvantages, and you're done.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

I'd say hands down that this was the best change in 4E. Everything else could have stayed, but this was exactly what the system needed. The escalating target numbers and variable dice just caused an unpredictable system. The power of magic (and the importance of Willpower = 6) were very much contributed by this aspect of the system.

Oh, Good Lord yes. My last SR2/3 character brutally abused the rules for Reach in melee combat. "Hrm, I think I can roll more 2s than you can 8s..."

And 4E at leasts allows you to reduce the number of dice rolled by simply adding one automatic "hit" for every 4 dice.

Honestly, I think dice pools are about the same size. Rolling Firearms 6 + 1-3 dice from other areas and 6 dice from my combat pool (maxed out with all three attributes) puts me up to 15 dice in my SR 2/3 character's pool, usually.

And, really, rolling lots of dice is fun.

The worst thing they didn't change in SR 4 was the "multiple initiate phases per round".

Hey, at least it's not like 1/2, where the Wired-2 guy goes 2-3 times before the non-wired guy. Without the multiple actions, the reflex enhancers would need to be a lot cheaper.

Brad

Now, if I were going to run it in another system (which I wouldn't, but that's just me), I'd try Spycraft first. I haven't tried many others, but I found d20 Modern to be, ahem, bland.

 

[Elf Witch]

If you (or the OP) is going to be such a stickler for what the feel is, then converting it to a non-Shadowrun system is always going to be a bad option. You've gotta accept a bit of give and take as a few things play differently in the new system.

Mages in d20 Modern are still pretty powerful. You can take up to ten levels of what is almost exactly the D&D wizard, and you've got incantations to provide you with higher level spells as needed.

But again; if you want it to play exactly like Shadowrun, then... just play Shadowrun. For my money, Urban Arcana was already too much like Shadowrun to convince me not to just play Shadowrun instead.

I agree with this. As I said none of the other systems really gave me the feeling that I was playing Shadowrun.

D20 modern was the worse because we first used the vancian magic system which really nerfed the mages then we switched to using warlocks as temp plate that worked a little better.

But so many of the rules had to be tweaked that for me it felt very clunky and it seemed easier to just play Shadowrun using its rule system.

I guess for me the system is part of the flavor.

I play Kalamar it is my favorite DNd setting. I have played it using the d20 system , GURPS and hero system and the flavor of Kalamar was the same. So I am at a loss as to why using other systems did not work for Shadowrun for me.

 

[mmu1]

This was a conversation I was having a couple of days ago with my roommate over one of my major frustrations with DnD. The whole you are surrounded by 20 crossbow holding city guards and you just laugh because at higher levels you know that they will only hit you if they crit and you have enough HP to live anyway.

In Shadowrun I have been playing an hermatic mage for years. She has gotten really powerful with her ability to control force 8 elementals with her force 4 power focus she rarely fails on her spells now. But I can pretty much gurantee if she was surrounded by 20 lonestar cops demanding her surrender that refusing would most likely end in her death.

It is what I love about the game.

Yep. I've got a street sam I've played for a long time (approaching the 250 karma mark) who might be able to do it, but really wouldn't care to try.

...it's actually funny how over the course of that game, he ended up developing into a charismatic negotiator type who usually tries to talk people down so he won't have to shoot them. I love SR.

 

[Elf Witch]

Well, they did their best to screw it up, though. For me, the initiative system is one of those key non-negotiable things that make SR what it is.

Playing a guy with Wired Reflexes without multiple actions per round is just lame. SR3 made some adjustments for the sake of balance that were unfortunate but probably necessary (specifically, that everyone gets to go at least once before the ultra-fast guy gets his remaining actions, so he only gets to shoot at the slowpokes twice, rather than 4 or 6 times) but getting rid of multiple actions altogether just turns the game into playing make-believe. You pretend that your character has reflexes three or four times as quick as the human norm, and everyone else more or less humors you even though the rules don't support it.

Yeah, it's not "balanced", but that's only an issue if every run is best solved by a lot of shooting, which has never been the case in the SR games I played. No SR character is balanced, when it comes to their area of expertise, and they're all actually useful. That's the charm of the system.

Our GM liked the 2E rules for initiative so he kept those when we play 3E but to make it easier for us non wired mages to live as a free action you can hit the ground when shooting starts.

It works granted it is the same argument that a wired person would still move a lot faster than one who is not wired but it adds a little balance to the game and gives non wired characters a better chance of living through an encounter with a lot of shooting.

And realistically since the shooters usually don't know who are the mages at first they are going to shoot at the people shooting back as often as they are.

But like you said if you get into a shooting battle during a run you have some how screwed it up pretty badly.

 

[mmu1]

Oh, Good Lord yes. My last SR2/3 character brutally abused the rules for Reach in melee combat. "Hrm, I think I can roll more 2s than you can 8s..."

...I'm pretty sure that there's no way to get 6 points of reach, which is what you're describing. Off-hand, I'd say the most you'll get will be 3, and that's as a troll with a polearm.

Which is why you shoot trolls with polearms. With a grenade launcher.

 

[Elf Witch]

Yep. I've got a street sam I've played for a long time (approaching the 250 karma mark) who might be able to do it, but really wouldn't care to try.

...it's actually funny how over the course of that game, he ended up developing into a charismatic negotiator type who usually tries to talk people down so he won't have to shoot them. I love SR.

That is what I like about the game as well.

You might live through that kind of encounter but unlike high level DnD it is not a gurantee.

So much would depend on how prepared they were and if you knew they we waiting for you.

For my mage if she knew then she would have time to call into service some elementals to even the playing field and maybe get a mana blast off and then have some way to get away fast. That would be the key for her making it through. But getting into a shooting match would be scary because most of them would be wired and the odds of rolling enough dice to stage down the damage would be against her.

I think the only chance I would really have is if my doc wagon braclet went off and since I have a platinum membership they would send in a fully armed strike force to get me out.


A street sam would have a better chance in a straight shooting match of course if Lonestar has a couple of mages with them it could get very hairy.

 

[Elf Witch]

shoot[/i] trolls with polearms. With a grenade launcher.

Or since they have a better body than will hit them with mana spells or lets see how they like being enveloped in the embrace of a fire elemental.

 

[mmu1]

A street sam would have a better chance in a straight shooting match of course if Lonestar has a couple of mages with them it could get very hairy.

I took that character in a funny direction, actually. He's great at combat (what with all that Karma) but I started him of with quite high Willpower and kept pumping points into it. (we spent a loooong time in Bug City, it proved incredibly handy) He's up to 10.

Encounters with hostile mages often go along the lines of:

Mage: "Hah! Foolish cyborgs with your puny weapons! You have metal muscles, but know nothing of true strength. Now I melt your brain."

Street Sam: "Hold on, hold on. Dwarf, you know. I can only run so fast. Be right there."

Mage: "Interesting. You are not dead yet. But now I really kill you! Bwahahaha! Uh... No, wa..."

Street Sam: "How are you at unarmed combat? Meet Mr. Shock Stick."

Mage: *Aaaaargh* *drool*

 

[jdrakeh]

([Dogs in the Vineyard - Mormons] + Cyberware) x Elves = Story Shadowrun. Seriously, though, both games are about empowered bad asses travelling from place to place and solving problems. Runners get paid, though that's the only real fundamental difference.