shadowdancer's upper level powers

[darkbard]

howdy folks! here's the dilemma: a player in my campaign is strongly considering the shadowdancer prestige class for her tiefling rogue. however, she feels that at the upper levels [specifically 10th level when the shadowdancer's shadow jump distance improves and she gains improved evasion], the character will gain little from continuing in the prestige class. since she is coming into the class as a rogue, she will already have improved evasion by that level [and, for that matter, already has uncanny dodge and darkvision].

the player is trying to convince me to swap out some [or at least the 10th level improved evasion] abilities for a choice from the rogue list of special abilities. i contend that the designers were well aware of the overlap of abilities with rogue and specifically balanced the class with this in mind, and thus no switch-out of abilities is necessary. am i being overly dogmatic? would it unbalance the class to switch out one or more abilities that overlap with the character's pre-existing abilities? any comments are greatly appreciated.

 

[Aust Diamondew]

Usually I allow a player to get another ability in place of one he already has if he would gain it otherwise as long as the power has the right flavor and isn't more powerful than the other one you're good.

 

[Diirk]

There's only an overlap if the player wants there to be ... improved evasion is a 10th level effect as a rogue, which they have to specifically choose from a list. You can get into shadowdancer at 7th level or so, I forget exactly. Its more than likely that a 10th shadow dancer WON'T have improved evasion or slippery mind already. Especially if they're excercising a bit of forethought.

A similair situation would be a rogue that takes weapon proficiency: greatsword, then multiclasses to fighter. They already bought greatsword proficiency, and now they're getting it again.. should they gain something else instead?

Imo, no.

 

[Herpes Cineplex]

If it were me, I'd say there would be no swapping out of the Shadowdancer improved evasion for something else from the rogue list. Those are the abilities for high-level rogues: if you want one of them, go be a high-level rogue and stop taking levels as a Shadowdancer already.

But for the duplicated darkvision, I'd follow the example set by some other prestige classes and give a bump to her darkvision range; if it was 60', now it's 120', or maybe only 90' if I was feeling churlish. After all, it fits with the Shadowdancer shtick for her to be able to see further in complete darkness once she starts learning those kinds of things.

Likewise with uncanny dodge; I'd just say the Shadowdancer levels stacked with Rogue for purposes of calculating Uncanny Dodge.

--
which, to be perfectly honest, i've always assumed they did anyway
ryan

 

[Diirk]

Yeah the uncanny dodge stacks... the darkvision range increasing wouldn't be too unreasonable.

It just ocurred to me, if she's complaining about getting improved evasion from multiple sources... rogue 10/shadowdancer 10 as a tiefling? Its a lvl 21 character?

 

[darkbard]

i'm using the alternate rule in unearthed arcana that allows +x ECL classes to reduce their level adjustment with spending xps. and thanks for the responses so far!

 

[Diirk]

Thats a horrible rule if you use the FR/3.5 method for determining xp, you essentially get a LA for free.

 

[darkbard]

actually, i haven't found it so bad. at lower levels when the character's extra racial abilities are more than just window dressing, the character operates at a lower level. at mid- to high-levels, when those racial abilities lose most of their oomph [at least the tiefling's], the character is effectively only 1/2 a level behind. not so bad in my opinion, though it could be abusive, as you point out, for other ECL races. a drow's spell resistance, for example, continues to be quite worthwhile at higher levels....

 

[Diirk]

The problem being if you use the 3.5/FR method of xp distribution, where lower level characters get more xp than higher levels, once you buy off your level adjustment and are a bit behind the rest of the party xp wise, you'll catch up. Eventually, you won't be behind at all. (Unless you had a rather large LA)

For something like a tiefling or an aasimar , thats not really a big deal, their abilities are kinda on the minor side... but a drow character definately deserves their penalty, as do many others

 

[Prism]

As Diirk has mentioned, if the player had known they were taking shadow dancer in advance they probably shouldn't have taken improved evasion as their 10th level rogue ability knowing about the later duplication. Having said that I can see no balance reasons at all why you couldn't let them take the improved evasion now and an alternative rogue ability later as a 10th level shadow dancer.

Alternatively you could let them re-select their 10th level rogue ability and choose something different so it doesn't conflict. Improved evasion isn't that great anyway - how many reflex save does the players rogue fail. Hopefully very few