Shadowrun War! "Arbeit Macht Frei!"

BOOM, spirits may or may not be ghosts, it's left ambiguous for a reason, there is no clear answer, DONE.
BOOM, if it's ambiguous, then we are free to take the supplement's words as written, DONE.
BOOM, the idea of trying to use combat to take down spirits is hilarious seeing as how they're some of the most powerful and deadly things you can encounter in the game, meant to be "removed" with anything that's not combat, DONE.
BOOM, not knowing if the rest of the product provides the means to do so or not, we are left to speculate given what has been presented, DONE.

Again, several- including the motivationally suspect reviewer (who highlights things like runners having to break spirit barriers to enter the area)- have pointed out that the writer is seemingly as unfamiliar with the way SR4 works as an Average Joe. While combatting spirits may be essentially nonsense in the game proper, it is still seemingly what the supplement is implying is to be done.
 
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Directly combating spirits isn't as far fetched as some might think (in Shadowrun), you just don't do it with fire arms, explosives and regular close combat weapons. There are options in game that allow you to virtually rip through spirits (and astral forms), it's just rather rare. Most runners aren't specialized in this kind of work (or who remembers the Negamage).

I think a lot of folks here that have extremely little knowledge about SR and how that world/game works have an attitude that is as clueless as the folks that made D&Ders out to be demon worshipers. You can't really read a few paragraphs out of context, otherwise folks might think that Christians are cannibals and your average D&D adventure is played by racist (everything green must go!), grave robbers and religious fanatics...

The ambiguity about spirits is a bit more extreme then your used to in RPGs, in essence they are energy given form by the people, most often by those who summon them (all kinds of magic users), but sometimes they evolve naturally in the presence of intelligent creatures. Now no one knows what they are exactly, that's where the ambiguity is. Everyone who has actually read the SR books knows that they aren't actually ghosts as we know them, the spirits/souls of the dead that need to be put to rest. But that doesn't mean that there aren't spirits that act as ghosts, folks who live in that world might actually believe the are actual ghosts.

SR is based on the Real World, so it shouldn't surprise you that places and events that have a 'history' and are emotionally charged for some are used for 'entertainment'. Now this little SS/deathcamp thing isn't new, SR did something similarly with Native American spirits (burial site), you don't hear much about that. And what the Germans did to the Jewish population in 40-45, the Americans did to the Native American population a century or two before, the exact numbers are highly contested (they run from a few million to more then a hundred million).

SR also discusses RL hate groups, piracy, violent crime, drug use, religion, etc. For crying out loud, Shadowrunners are criminals, hardened criminals at that. I hear very little Nerd Rage about that, that's because it's a game. So treat this also as a game element.

As a side note, Shadowrun adventures generally do not follow the classic D&D adventure dungeon bash format. An adventure is generally split up in Encounters, that can be anything from a single street fight, to an infiltration of an office (which contains dozens of fights, to anything that isn't a fight (information gathering, Negotiations, puzzles, etc.). In SR you don't generally get xp for fighting, you get xp for reaching goals, how you reach them is up to you. If you want to go the Swatzenegger with minigun route, that you can do, if you want to go the sneaky route, that can be done as well. But every choice has a consequence.
 


...SR also discusses RL hate groups, piracy, violent crime, drug use, religion, etc. For crying out loud, Shadowrunners are criminals, hardened criminals at that. I hear very little Nerd Rage about that, that's because it's a game. So treat this also as a game element...

Whether a game or not, there are some subjects that need to be addressed with more sensitivity than others. This subject is one of them. Whether a game or not, and for many people, this supplement clearly stepped over the line of good taste into the realm of outright offensive. It's also not just one guy with an axe to grind. Just doing a casual search will bring up other forums and threads, some with diehard Shadowrun fans, that feel the same way.

This text and the author of this text was, at the least, misguided as to the subject matter and it's treatment. And, simply as a result of the chosen subject matter, it is inarguably offensive to many people...PERIOD. For some subjects, such as this one, there are no mitigating factors, whether contextual or gameworld defaults, that will ever make it acceptable.

And, I find calling such people "Clueless" to be offensive also.
 
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It seems as if one person's unquestionably offensive is another person's good idea. IOW, nothing new here. After I click "Submit Reply" I'm going to lean back and remember all the EN World posters that, for example, rabidly defended The DaVinci Code as acceptable entertainment. I might briefly recall the one poster who opined that a movie version of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion could be a good idea.
 

Whether a game or not, there are some subjects that need to be addressed with more sensitivity than others. This subject is one of them. Whether a game or not, and for many people, this supplement clearly stepped over the line of good taste into the realm of outright offensive. It's also not just one guy with an axe to grind. Just doing a casual search will bring up other forums and threads, some with diehard Shadowrun fans, that feel the same way.

This text and the author of this text was, at the least, misguided as to the subject matter and it's treatment. And, simply as a result of the chosen subject matter, it is inarguably offensive to many people...PERIOD. For some subjects, such as this one, there are no mitigating factors, whether contextual or gameworld defaults, that will ever make it acceptable.

And, I find calling such people "Clueless" to be offensive also.

There are folks that find that when a cartoonist depicts the Prophet in a newspaper cartoon, he's being offensive to the point of being heretical, they even call for his death. Folks denying the termination of six million Jewish souls are regarded as being offensive to many, many folks. The Democrats find the views of the Republicans offensive, the Republicans find the views of the Democrats offensive. Slavery and racial hatred is a sour issue with a large part of the black population in the US. Sex on the TV is offensive to many.

Admin here. Problem #1: Don't refer to real-life politics or religion, please. Yes, I know that the thread discusses a politically and emotionally charged Shadowrun adventure. In that case, we expect people to deal with the subject tastefully and with good judgment.

We're talking about fictitious entities in a fictitious world that hit on something that happened 65 years ago (done by a foreign power), this is (suddenly) unacceptable. The same thing is done 165 years ago (by the local government) and we don't hear a soul crying about it anymore when it is referenced in an RPG or even when children play Cowboys and Indians on the streets...

The reason I call folks clueless is that conclusions are made, based on incomplete and/or incorrect 'facts'.

Problem #2: I don't give a damn whether people are offended or not, but I do care when someone is being insulting or rude. Calling people clueless falls into both categories. Don't do it. As it turns out, people not agreeing with you doesn't make them clueless.

It might not have been tastefully done, it might be offensive to some, but since when is that new. Take any RPG and it will be offensive to someone and we're OK with ridiculing those folks (the folks that think that D&Ders become devil worshipers for example). We ridicule their ignorance, so why should we not ridicule the same folks that make similar (ridiculous) conclusions based on the same incorrect/incomplete facts?

Your signature makes light of suicide (and slaughter), don't think there is no one that could possibly be offended by that? How about you using the name "El Mahdi" as a handle for an RPG forum? I'm not arguing that folks might find it very offensive, I'm arguing that it's ridiculous to argue about it on an RPG forum where everything is fictitious as a matter of fact...

Remember, folks, don't seek offense where none is intended. It makes reading message boards much more fun. If you dislike the premise of the Shadowrun adventure, that's fine, but don't take that out on your fellow posters who disagree with you.

As I said above, people can get offended at whatever they wish. That's a separate issue than what's permissible on these boards. If anyone has questions about our policies and posting guidelines, please feel free to PM me.

~ Piratecat
 
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There are folks that find...
...is offensive to many.

I won't respond to this first paragraph as it violates the boards rules on politics.

...this is (suddenly) unacceptable.

No. It's not suddenly unacceptable. It's always been unacceptable.

The same thing is done 165 years ago (by the local government) and we don't hear a soul crying about it anymore when it is referenced in an RPG or even when children play Cowboys and Indians on the streets...

Untrue. Without delving into politics, I'll simply say this is an issue that has never gone away. Do a simple Google search and you'll see it's true. Also, I have always considered that topic personally offensive to me also. I never have used or made a game out of real life atrocities. I find doing so offensive.

The reason I call folks clueless is that conclusions are made, based on incomplete and/or incorrect 'facts'.

There is no reason that makes calling people "Clueless" on these boards an acceptable thing to do.

It might not have been tastefully done, it might be offensive to some, but since when is that new. Take any RPG and it will be offensive to someone and we're OK with ridiculing those folks (the folks that think that D&Ders become devil worshipers for example). We ridicule their ignorance, so why should we not ridicule the same folks that make similar (ridiculous) conclusions based on the same incorrect/incomplete facts?.

Just because it's not new, doesn't make it any more acceptable. There is simply no rationalization that makes using aspects of the Holocaust for entertainment in a game, acceptable. It's not about ignorance. Your comparison to those who attack D&D as Devil Worshipers is not the same thing. Not even close.

Your signature makes light of suicide (and slaughter), don't think there is no one that could possibly be offended by that? How about you using the name "El Mahdi" as a handle for an RPG forum? I'm not arguing that folks might find it very offensive, I'm arguing that it's ridiculous to argue about it on an RPG forum where everything is fictitious as a matter of fact...

My signature does not "make light" of anything. It says, contrary to those who would demonize RPG's, that today, Role Players did not do those things.

Again, you're making a comparison that doesn't apply.

And what's wrong with the name "El Mahdi"...?:erm:

I think a lot of folks here that have extremely little knowledge about SR and how that world/game works have an attitude that is as clueless as the folks that made D&Ders out to be demon worshipers...

I think you shoul stop calling people in this thread "Clueless".
 
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I think you should stop calling people in this thread "Clueless".
Why? Because you think it is offensive ;-)

Mod edit: No. Because it is rude, insulting, childish, ineffective rhetoric, and because an Admin told you to not do it 10 minutes before you posted this. That should answer the question, once and for all. ~Umbran

Google El Mahdi, you'll understand why certain folks might find it offensive.

Let's leave all the cowboys vs. Indians movies, let's look at all the movies about the holocaust, movies are entertainment (otherwise they would be documentaries). Sure they might have been more tastefully done, but they still were made about the holocaust with the intent to entertain and make millions...

If your ignorant about some of the SR background, go read this:
Shadowrun - Revenge of the Ghost Dance

The text concludes with:
Shadowrun’s popularity is increasing. (Marcucci, pg 1) Consequentially, it gives many that are ignorant of the plight of the American Indian some knowledge of what has happened in the past. Additionally, the game is easy for beginners to learn. Despite the problems with its interpretations of the American Indian, the fact such a game exists that focuses on the Native American struggle, and is so popular, is a positive sign.

Now, first of all, I have never seen any topic on ENworld about how offensive these parts of SR are to Native Americans. Second, instead of being offensive, it is viewed as a game that (while inaccurate) focused on the Native American struggle in a positive way. And instead of looking at the the piece about Auschwitz in the same light, it is looked upon as offensive. The description of what happened there in WWII isn't far off, only the conclusions of certain simpleminded (because clueless is apparently offensive) views on how a Shadowrun game works equates this with a dungeon bash in a German deathcamp killing Jewish ghosts for profit. There is actually nothing of the sort, there is an idea and you can make it as tasteful or tasteless as you want.
 
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