Shadowrun War! "Arbeit Macht Frei!"

[Korgoth]

I find this rather offensive and distasteful. The premise of going to Auschwitz to re-kill a bunch of Jews to get Nazi treasure... um, no. Just no.

There are some things you don't make a game out of. It's OK to touch upon the subject respectfully (and in fact it's preferable to a "whitewash" where you pretend that extremely important things never actually happened, or ignore them). This comes up in wargaming too. I don't mind the idea of someone running a Waffen SS army... and actually the situation is complicated inasmuch as some SS guys were actually pretty merciful, and some regular German Army guys were as vicious as they come. So it's not a cut and dried situation by any means; but still, if you're going to run a Waffen SS army do they have to be Totenkopf? Really? I've even seen pictures of dioramas that imply the Shoah. Your WWII game should acknowledge that these things existed, but be careful as to what you make into a subject of leisurely amusement.

It's a fine line. Acknowledge that it exists, but don't make it an object of play. Because even when games are edifying and artistically charged, they're still games and it's still play.

 

[Imperialus]

I find this rather offensive and distasteful. The premise of going to Auschwitz to re-kill a bunch of Jews to get Nazi treasure... um, no. Just no.

Not what's happening. Dealing with a bunch of spirits who have been corrupted by the bad astral space around the camp, pursuing a rumor that the same astral taint has imbued several artifacts with magical properties is what's going on.

Again, this premise was initially set up in Shadows of Europe several years ago. Didn't cause a hue and cry then. All the new author did was suggested the possibility that some artifacts might have created as a result of the astral taint that exists in the place.

And again, there are no ghosts in Shadowrun. At least not in the sense that there is anything in astral space that is the manifestation of an individual who died. There are especially no ghosts tied to anything from before the awakening so no, the PC's are not 're-killing' holocaust victims.

As for the "turning Shadowrun into a dungeon hack" argument, what do you suppose the Renraku Archeology was? How about DNA/DOA, Imagio, Queen Euphoria, Universal Brotherhood the list goes on.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

And again, there are no ghosts in Shadowrun. At least not in the sense that there is anything in astral space that is the manifestation of an individual who died. There are especially no ghosts tied to anything from before the awakening so no, the PC's are not 're-killing' holocaust victims.

That there are no ghosts in SR, you and others- the reviewer as well, I think- have said. (Its been so long since I played it...)

But here's the problem: the text in the exerpt reads as I the writer either does not know this or is presenting Auschwitz as being an exception to the rule that there are no ghosts in SR:

War!
For the inclined occult investigator, Auschwitz-Birkenau is a treasure trove. It’s also a remarkably dangerous trap. Earlier this year, an entrepreneur named Tetsuo Shuumatsu hired a cabal of sorcerers, charging them with the removal of the barrier. He’s an arms dealer, one who specializes in the weapons necessary to take down ghosts. With such an infestation of ghosts, only a silly buyer would hesitate to pay top dollar for his wares. His greed opened this treasure trove to the public, allowing those without a sense of self-preservation to have a unique opportunity to drudge for necromantic artifacts.

The town proper is effectively still a town, albeit a town inhabited by the angry and hungry dead. They don’t take kindly to the living, but aren’t necessarily hostile unless provoked. Many are simply living out echoes of their past existences as harmless villagers. The real problem comes from the concentration camps proper. The three main campuses are surrounded by about fifty smaller camps. Each of the smaller camps is a hotbed of supernatural activity, but nothing compared to the magnitude of the central collective.

In particular, Auschwitz II is remarkable. It was the source of the vast majority of deaths—it’s what most people think of when referencing Auschwitz. It’s nightmare made flesh, almost a living organism unto itself. The halls audibly scream and cry, the ghosts beg for release so much that most people couldn’t even hear themselves speak. For your average runner, Auschwitz II is suicide. Only the most enterprising groups will survive the trip. But such a trip can result in great rewards (see The Fleshfinder, below).

(emphasis mine)

In addition, that line about "great rewards" re: Fleshfinder (and anything else the GM chooses to salt the run with) is, to say the least, tacky and diminishing of the tragedy of Auschwitz.

Lastly, if the danger comes not from undead, what is it the runners are facing? What makes adventuring in Auschwitz "suicide?"

 

[Imperialus]

That there are no ghosts in SR, you and others- the reviewer as well, I think- have said. (Its been so long since I played it...)

But here's the problem: the text in the exerpt reads as I the writer either does not know this or is presenting Auschwitz as being an exception to the rule that there are no ghosts in SR:



(emphasis mine)

In addition, that line about "great rewards" re: Fleshfinder (and anything else the GM chooses to salt the run with) is, to say the least, tacky and diminishing of the tragedy of Auschwitz.

Lastly, if the danger comes not from undead, what is it the runners are facing? What makes adventuring in Auschwitz "suicide?"

Oh, I agree that the writer didn't know what the hell he was talking about. Like I said in my initial post CGL lost a lot of their best writers last March. That said, there has been instances in the past of SR writers referring to 'ghosts'. There are 'ghosts' in the Renraku archeology, 'ghosts' in and around the warehouses that got burnt during the Night of Rage ect. but the key thing is that none of them are the actual 'souls' of dead individuals.

Here's a quote from New Seattle (from back in the 3rd edition the original Seattle sourcebook had something similar but I don't have that in easy copy/pastable PDF form)

Some of those old tunnels along the waterfront are still haunted by the ghosts of metahumans killed on that night. They’re terrifying to look at—most of them are horribly burned, and they despise humans. If you’re a norm, you’d best stay away from those parts of the Underground. Even the metas don’t go there, because some of the ghosts hate all living things. The atmosphere of hate and rage has tainted astral space in the area too, making it difficult to assense anything down there.
> Blackstone

And this is from the 4th ed core book

Mages summon spirits that represent the basic building blocks of the universe: air, earth, fire, and water. These are called elemental spirits in hermetic theory. In addition, they may summon a “fifth element” of consciousness: the spirits of man. The realization of these elemental spirits of the mind are a recent development and mages differ on what they believe these spirits to be. Some refer to the spirits of man as ghosts, while others call them mind or consciousness elementals. Some few even view these entities as ancestor spirits.

I'm not entirely sure what the super sekret ghostbusting gear would be... I suppose some gear like FAB grenades, capsule rounds carrying FAB III, weapon foci ect might fit the bill but really your best defense for an astral threat in Shadowrun is a mage with a ton of points dumped into banishing or a physad with astral perception and a weapon foci.

As for what the runners are facing, like I said before, some variety of toxic wild spirit would seem to fit the bill. "Harrows" or toxic spirits of Man seem like the best fit. Throw in a few high force ones and Auchwitz would certainly be suicide for most runner groups.

 

[El Mahdi]

Not what's happening. Dealing with a bunch of spirits who have been corrupted by the bad astral space around the camp, pursuing a rumor that the same astral taint has imbued several artifacts with magical properties is what's going on.

Again, this premise was initially set up in Shadows of Europe several years ago. Didn't cause a hue and cry then. All the new author did was suggested the possibility that some artifacts might have created as a result of the astral taint that exists in the place.

And again, there are no ghosts in Shadowrun. At least not in the sense that there is anything in astral space that is the manifestation of an individual who died. There are especially no ghosts tied to anything from before the awakening so no, the PC's are not 're-killing' holocaust victims.
...

Sorry Imperialus, but I have to disagree. Danny has it right. It's quite explicitly laid out in that text. I can't refute or deny what you're saying about the defaults of Shadowrun, as I haven't read very much in the way of Shadowrun publications; but even if this is "normal" within that context, I think it's still undeniably offensive.

I find it rather disappointing in that, for something like this to be printed, it's not just an author involved but everybody in the chain: author, any fellow designers/writer who read it, any proofreaders, and finally the editor(s). Any one of which could have exerted influence or put the kibosh on this.

Mages summon spirits that represent the basic building blocks of the universe: air, earth, fire, and water. These are called elemental spirits in hermetic theory. In addition, they may summon a “fifth element” of consciousness: the spirits of man. The realization of these elemental spirits of the mind are a recent development and mages differ on what they believe these spirits to be. Some refer to the spirits of man as ghosts, while others call them mind or consciousness elementals. Some few even view these entities as ancestor spirits.

And whether or not it's been said in other material that ghosts do not exist in Shadowrun, the above is saying "maybe they do...maybe they don't...don't really know what they are". But when that is coupled with adventure hooks, flavor text, or location descriptions attributing these "spirits" to areas where People have died, then the link to those People is at the least implied, and at the worst a wink-wink code.

Then write a piece of text where the People that died at that location are the victims of a very real world Holocaust, and a subject that is very sensitive and raw to many people. Then I'd consider that text to be at the least, callous and in poor taste...and at the worst, malicious and purposely offensive.

Some people have mentioned (perhaps not in this thread, but in other forums threads concerning this) that the same treatment has been extended in Shadowrun books, to many other sites around the world where similar things happened to real world groups/peoples (specifically Native Americans). Quite honestly, I find that just as offensive.

...There's nothing wrong with the content of what's written, in the context of a Shadowrun sourcebook.

Within the context of a Shadowrun sourcebook? Maybe. I haven't read a whole lot of Shadowrun sourcebooks.

But, within a context as concerns people at large and not just Shadowrun fans? Yeah, I think it quite obviously exceeds the threshold which most people would consider good taste or even close to acceptable.

I can't imagine any way in which this material/hook could be used in a game, that wouldn't be offensive to just about every person I know...including most persons I've ever gamed with.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

First you say there are no ghosts, than you post this:

In addition, they may summon a “fifth element” of consciousness: the spirits of man. The realization of these elemental spirits of the mind are a recent development and mages differ on what they believe these spirits to be. Some refer to the spirits of man as ghosts, while others call them mind or consciousness elementals. Some few even view these entities as ancestor spirits.

Sure as hell sounds like ghosts to me.

 

[Imperialus]

First you say there are no ghosts, than you post this:


Sure as hell sounds like ghosts to me.

Lemme see if I can try to explain... Spirits in Shadowrun are pretty weird when it comes to exactly what they are. When a mage or shaman or any other awakened someone summons one they are a tabula rasa and their 'form' is created out of a combination of what the summoner percieves them to be and the location that they are summoned in...

In other words, you could summon the 'spirit' of your dead granddad, but it would be your granddad as you perceived him, not an actual manifestation of his 'soul'. This means that while a druidic shaman might summon a spirit of beasts that looks and acts like a member of the wild hunt a hermetic magician might summon a spirit of beasts that looks and acts the way he would expect a gargoyle or homunculus to behave.

The astral space in the background also affects the manifestation of a spirit. If you summon that same spirit of beasts in a highly toxic area like a nuclear waste site then it might manifest as a rabid dog for example.

There are also free spirits and wild spirits that exist independently of any summoner. These are often drawn to astrally significant areas, sometimes places like Lay Lines or important ritual locations like Stonehenge but also places where there was great human suffering like battlefields and even areas where something of significance happened to the earth itself there. In that case their form manifests according to the collective understanding of what happened there. That's where you get "ghosts" from.

 

[Korgoth]

Imperialus, I think we should stick with the text here. I don't think my formulation is an unreasonable reading of the text.

Now, you probably have a good argument for Shadowrun not being like that generally, and perhaps for the text merely being a poor communication of the setting (i.e. it might even be the case that the text doesn't mean just what it says). That's fine: I'm not a fan of SR but I don't have anything against it. However, the text we were given upthread is pretty dodgy.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Hands up - those of you arguing, have you even played SR4? Because it's not sounding like it. Heck, have you read it?

Let's do these quick.

BOOM, spirits may or may not be ghosts, it's left ambiguous for a reason, there is no clear answer, DONE.

BOOM, the idea of trying to use combat to take down spirits is hilarious seeing as how they're some of the most powerful and deadly things you can encounter in the game, meant to be "removed" with anything that's not combat, DONE.

BOOM, playing SR of any edition as a kick-in-the-door game leads to a whole lot of dead runners, omai. Shadowrun is about gathering info, planning out the run, making plans B and C, infiltrating into the stronghold whole trying to neutralize or avoid threats, and then hastily coming up with Plan F when everything glitches. DAMN TOOK TOO LONG.

BOOM, the reviewer in question doesn't just have an agenda, he has "I want SR4 to fail" tattooed on his flesh (no not literally) so any and all reviews done by him need to be taken with a mountain of salt, DONE.

BOOM, that section looks pretty dang crappily written and it ignores a good bit of actual SR lore, DONE.

Any questions?

 

[Wik]

Any questions?

What's a battle?